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Mormonism, Are Family’s really forever?

One question that keeps being spread to possible LDS converts is: Will, or can, families be together forever? The answer is No! According to the Bible. Jesus said that there is no marriage in heaven. Matthew 22:29=30 “Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.'”

Now, I want the LDS leaders to be able to speak for themselves, so all the info posted below is taken directly from the LDS website: www.lds.org.
Everything is from the LDS church. and if you read through it, it states who goes to which heaven or who goes to outer darkness. After reading the info, you decide whether or not families really be together forever. It’s not possible. Use this info to arm yourselves the next time you talk with an LDS member and hear them say, “Families are forever.”

LDS TEACHINGS.
Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

More than any other book, the Doctrine and Covenants helps us understand the nature of life after death. The Savior taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that “mansions” may be understood to mean “kingdoms”—those kingdoms in which we will dwell in the life after this. He said: “It should be—‘In my Father’s kingdom are many kingdoms,’ in order that ye may be heirs of God and joint-heirs with me. … There are mansions for those who obey a celestial law, and there are other mansions for those who come short of the law, every man in his own order.” 1

As scientific knowledge increases, it will become more evident that there is order in the universe and that all things are governed by harmonious and immutable laws. Perfect order exists in everything in nature from the nucleus of the atom to the immensity of space. This is true in spiritual things as well as temporal; therefore, blessings that are spiritual are also governed by spiritual laws. “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven … , upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

In other words, there is a relationship between obedience and blessings. The Lord has said that we will be blessed and will live in a degree of glory in the next life according to the eternal laws we obey in mortality. “For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory” (D&C 88:22). The same holds true for the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms (see D&C 88:23–24).

As the Prophet Joseph Smith was laboring on what we now call the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible, he received a vision later recorded as Doctrine and Covenants section 76. Included in this revelation is a comparison of the three degrees of glory: the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdoms. Following is a brief description of each.

The Celestial Kingdom
The Lord compared celestial glory to that of the sun, “even the glory of God, the highest of all” (D&C 76:70; see also D&C 76:96). Those who will inherit this kingdom must do the following:

• Receive a testimony of Jesus and believe on His name (see D&C 76:51).
• Be baptized by immersion (see D&C 76:51).
• Receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (see D&C 76:52).
• Obey the commandments and be washed and cleansed of all sins (see D&C 76:52).
• Overcome by faith (see D&C 76:53).
• Be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise (see D&C 76:53).
Those who qualify for the celestial kingdom will receive, among other blessings:

• Be of a company of angels, of the general assembly and church of Enoch and of the Firstborn (see D&C 76:54, 67).
• Receive the fulness, glory, and grace of the Father (see D&C 76:55, 56, 94).
• Be priests and kings of the Most High God (see D&C 76:56–59).
• Overcome all things (see D&C 76:60).
• Dwell forever in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
• Be with Christ at the time of His Second Coming (see D&C 76:63).
• Come forth in the First Resurrection (see D&C 76:64–65).
• Go up unto Mount Zion and unto the heavenly city of God (see D&C 76:66).
• Minister to terrestrial and telestial beings (see D&C 76:87–88).
• Be able to have offspring, or in other words, gain the right to become eternal parents (see D&C 131:4).
The Lord further revealed the important doctrines of salvation for the dead and salvation of little children in the celestial kingdom:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

“Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; …

“… All children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:7–8, 10). Except for those whose mental abilities prevent them from reaching the age of accountability (see D&C 29:50), the age of accountability is eight (see D&C 68:25).

We do not know much about who will inherit two of the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. However, much has been said about the highest level in the celestial kingdom, or exaltation, because that is where the Father wants all of His children to live (see Moses 1:39). The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that temple marriage is the key to obtaining exaltation:

“In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

“And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

“And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

“He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:1–4).

“If a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; … and if [they] abide in my covenant …

“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting … because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:19–20).

The Terrestrial Kingdom
The Lord compared terrestrial glory to that of the moon (see D&C 76:97). It exceeds the telestial in all things (see D&C 76:91). Those who will inherit this kingdom are those who experienced one or more of the following circumstances:

• Died without law (see D&C 76:72).
• Were in spirit prison and received a testimony there but rejected the testimony of Jesus while on the earth (see D&C 76:73–74; see also D&C 138:32).
• Were honorable people who allowed themselves to be blinded by the craftiness of men (see D&C 76:75).
• Were not valiant in their testimonies of Jesus (see D&C 76:79).
Among other blessings and limitations, those who qualify for the terrestrial kingdom will:

• Come forth in the First Resurrection after celestial beings are resurrected. 2
• Receive of God’s glory but not His fulness (see D&C 76:76).
• Enjoy the presence of the Son but not the fulness of the Father (see D&C 76:77).
• Not be able to obtain a crown in the kingdom of God (see D&C 76:79).
• Be ministered to by celestial beings (see D&C 76:87).
The Telestial Kingdom
The Lord compared telestial glory to that of the stars (see D&C 76:81). Those who shall inherit this kingdom are those who:

• Rejected the gospel, the testimony of Jesus, the prophets, and the everlasting covenant (see D&C 76:82, 101).
• Were liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers (see D&C 76:103).
• Loved “and [made] a lie” (D&C 76:103).
Among other blessings and limitations, those who inherit the telestial kingdom will:

• Suffer the wrath of God on earth (see D&C 76:104) and not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, which will take place after the Millennium (see D&C 76:85). 3
• Be denied the Savior’s fulness (see D&C 76:86).
• Be able to receive the Holy Ghost through the ministration of beings in higher glories (see D&C 76:86–88).
• Never be able to come where God and Christ dwell (see D&C 76:112).
I am grateful that the Lord revealed these eternal truths through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Such truths help us have a greater understanding of the plan of salvation and a stronger testimony of Jesus Christ. We are blessed to know what our eternal destiny will be if we will keep the commandments and endure to the end.

Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

Additional Information
There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Celestial Kingdom

The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This should be your goal: to inherit celestial glory and to help others receive that great blessing as well. Such a goal is not achieved in one attempt; it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.

The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have “received the testimony of Jesus” and been “made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood” (D&C 76:51, 69). To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins. For a detailed explanation of those who will inherit celestial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:50-70; 76:92-96.

In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. (See D&C 137:1-6.) Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:

“All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; ”Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

“For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:7-9).

Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, “I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven” (D&C 137:10).

From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into “the new and everlasting covenant of marriage” and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. (See D&C 131:1-4.) All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.

Terrestrial Kingdom

Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun” (D&C 76:77-78). Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people “who were blinded by the craftiness of men” (D&C 76:75). This group will include members of the Church who were “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (see D&C 76:73-74). To learn more about those who will inherit terrestrial glory, see Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80, 91, 97.

Telestial Kingdom

Telestial glory will be reserved for individuals who “received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:82). These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed from spirit prison, which is sometimes called hell (see D&C 76:84, D&C 76:106). A detailed explanation of those who will inherit telestial glory is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-90, 98-106, 109-112.

Perdition

Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called “the sons of perdition” and will have to “abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory” (D&C 76:32; 88:24). This will be the state of “those who know [God’s] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God’s] power” (D&C 76:31; see also D&C 76:30, 32-49).

See also Atonement of Jesus Christ; Eternal Life; Heaven; Hell; Plan of Salvation

—See True to the Faith (2004), 92-95

Mormonism’s–Bruce R. McConkie’s “Challenge”

I posted this back in Jan of (06) And no one has been able to take it up and give an honest answer. I even posted it on another Blog and the only reply from an LDS person was, I could reply I just do not want to. I told her she was a liar and could not that was why she did not. I showed it to a Mormon Missionary I was sharing with, him and his partner could not answer it, so here it is again for any one who has not seen it. I am posting it again because I was told I would get the answers I am looking for. Rick b

In the Original 1958 Edition to the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R.McConkie He states In the Preface:

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique–the first book of it’s kind ever published.
It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.
It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel–the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation–and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowledge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorance of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to “teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom”; to “be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient” for them “to understand.” (D and C 88:77-7

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standard works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.
Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many technical details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valuable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsel has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 –Bruce R. McConkie.

Keep in mind Bruce stated He looks to people Like Joseph Smith and Bringham Young as recognized doctrinal authorities. So with that in mind, Is a Challenge as it were, Issued By Bruce R.McConkie.

I have read all 4 standard works. I find nothing at all in the Book of Mormon to prove it is inspired by God as LDS claim. Bruce states we can find hundreds of topics, I would like to issue a Challenge to all my Latter-day saint friends to bring forth just 10 topics of your choice, compare them to the Bible and show me how they are a more accurate display of the Gospel. Please keep in mind, I am following Acts 17:11 and 1st peter 3:15. Then after you read Bruce’s Challenge, I lovingly added a list of things That LDS feel are core doctrine yet cannot be found in the BoM. This matter has everlasting eternal consequences. sincerely Rick b.

In the Book Mormon Doctrine By Bruce R. McConkie, under the title Book of Mormon.
bruce says the Purpose of the book of mormon is this.

1. To bear record of Christ, certifying in plainness and with clarity of his divine sonship and mission, proving irrefutably that he is the Redeemer and Saviour.

2. To teach the doctrines of the gospel in such a pure and perfect way that the plan of salvation will be clearly revealed; and

3. To stand as a witness to all the world that Joseph Smith was the Lord’s anointed through whom the foundation was laid for the great latter-day work of restoration. Almost all of the doctrines of the gospel are taught in the Book of Mormon with much greater clarity and perfection than those same doctrines are revealed in the Bible. Anyone who will place in parallel columns the teachings of these two great books on such subjects as the atonement, plan of salvation, gathering of Israel, baptism, gifts of the spirit, miracles, revelation, faith, Charity, ( or ANY of a HUNDRED OTHER SUBJECTS), will find conclusive proof of the superiority of the Book of Mormon teachings.

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?

Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are “three degrees of glory”?

Witnessing tips for Mormons.

I wrote a little booklet years ago. I felt the Lord leading me to do it, and I have since passed it out to lots of people. Please feel free to print it up and pass it around as needed. Once all three parts are posted you can simply print them and have a little booklet to use. Rick b


The Lord has called me to witness to Mormons. I have been studying Mormonism for around 16 years. It has been awesome how the Lord has blessed me and the talks I have had with Mormons. I feel like the Lord has spoken to my heart to put together some information for making it easier for the average person to witness to Mormons. Remember, we need to witness to Mormons to fulfill the Great Commission to make disciples of all men.

Over all, I do not claim to know everything. I feel you should spend time seeking the Lord as to how He would have each person speak to a Mormon and how to go about doing it. The purpose of this booklet is simple. I have read many books on how to witness to Mormons or books about Mormonism written by Christians. Many of the books I have read are very good and full of helpful hints. The only problem I see with most of these books is that they quote from books that most Mormons or Christians will never get their hands on, so it makes it harder to witness to Mormons. I felt lead, after much prayer, for more opportunity to help witness to Mormons. That is how this booklet came to be.

These tips will be simple and easier ways to share with Mormons. It will be done with the books most Mormons and Christians can or do have. For the people who have the rare and hard to find books like the Journal of Discourses. I will share things I have encountered so as to help you avoid the same problems I did, therefore, one less barrier to get through.

I will give a list of books that will be quoted from and the abbreviations that will be used thereafter:

Journal of Discourses –J.O.D.

Articles of Faith–A.of F.

Book of Mormon–B.O.M.

King James Version–K.J.V.

Doctrine and Covenants–D and C

Pearl of Great Price–P of GR P

Miracle of Forgiveness–Miracle

Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible–J.S.T.

Now please allow me to explain what is meant by the phrase “some books make it harder to a certain degree to witness”. Mormon prophets of old taught things like the Adam-God doctrine or blood atonement. Bringham Young taught Adam from the Garden of Eden was and is our god. Bringham Young also taught blood atonement. This means the blood of Jesus was not enough to cleanse us of certain sins, so you needed to shed your own blood. It can be proven they did indeed teach these and other bizarre things and make a good case stating why it was not just the Mormon prophet’s mere opinion. The average Christian could not prove these things, and the average Mormon is not aware of these teachings. It is good that people put these things out for us to see and research, but as far as using these books to witness, they do not always help or work for you when you do not have the original sources to quote.

In all fairness, if a person of any given religion, or even a non-believer, came up to a Christian and said, “I heard your church teaches this, that or the other thing“, and you never heard of this before, you would ask for proof. If they either say, “Well, I read it in a book,” or “I heard it on a tape or video,” and the person that supposedly spoke this was opposed to Christianity or was not a believer, you would say that person has no idea what they are talking about, and it will get nowhere for either person involved. If this is the case, then let’s grant the Mormon the same respect as we would want. They also say, “show me these things” or “I never heard of it before.” Most likely, they have never been taught these things, or the church will act like the doctrines were never taught.

The Mormon is taught that all books speaking out against Mormonism are anti-Mormon material and will want nothing to do with them. To help further your talks, unless you have the original books quoted from, like the J.O.D, to show them, it is best not to even mention it. It is a really good idea not to mention the names of so-called anti-Mormons, because if you do, the Mormon will think you are not thinking for yourself. They believe that you are reading anti-Mormon literature, then trying to use it to attack them and their beliefs.

I believe there are main issues in witnessing we need to stay focused on, such as: who is Jesus, the trinity, the nature of God, ect. But there can and will be times where you will have a couple of talks with the same Mormons. I had one Mormon come over 4 different times. Two other times he could not make it, so he sent someone else. Then, there are websites like the “Mormon Answer Man“. I try to go to websites like these and ask questions. You can read over questions already asked. Most likely, the questions like “Who is Jesus?” and “What is the nature of God?” have been asked. If you know the things found in the B.O.M., you can ask questions about things that don’t line up. I like to go to web sites like this as a chance to witness by asking hard questions that will get the Mormon thinking. If they get posted, then other people can think about them. I will point out questions that I ask to make Mormons think later in this booklet.

I know of some ex-Mormons, though not personally, that I have on books or tapes, that feel you can witness to Mormons just using their books. I agree. What most Christians don’t know is that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible and took many verses or whole passages from it and put them in the B.O.M. This is one reason why so many nominal believers convert to Mormonism. When they read the B.O.M., they feel they have read this or this sounds familiar. What is good about using the B.O.M. to witness with is that there is so much Christian doctrine in the B.O.M. Even though there is no power, because it is not the true Word of God, you can show them things and point out how it lines up with what we believe and how it goes against what Mormons believe.

I have heard many people (believers), go back and forth on this issue – “Should I read the B.O.M and use it as a tool to witness?” First and foremost, pray and ask God what He would have you do on this issue. My opinion is that you should read it to help in witnessing to Mormons, as long as you have a good handle on God’s true Word first. This is why I believe this: If a person came up to you and said the Bible is a false book, full of error, and I do not believe it is of God, the first question most Christians would ask is “Have you read it?” If the person said, “No,” then you would ask, “How can you say it is wrong and full of error if you never read it?”

If this is the case, then how come we cannot except this answer when a Mormon says this to us? Granted, as a believer we know it to be a false book. Still, we seem to think we can say that to someone, but no one can say it to us. The other reason I believe we should read the B.O.M. is because the Mormons likely will not talk to you if you say you haven’t read it. If you do, however, then you are past this one argument and can talk further with them. Also, if someone says it would be a waste of time to read the B.O.M. because it is a false book, I would like to add that many believers spend much time watching TV sitcoms or movies that are very degrading to women or the faith. It is not my place to judge what you watch, but if you can justify time spent for TV then why not to help better witness to a lost and dying Mormon. Another thing to remember also is that people like Dr. Walter Martin and John Ankerberg were never Mormons, yet in their research they read the B.O.M. and quote from it in their books. You go out and buy their books and read quotes from the B.O.M. and use them in witnessing or even just to better understand the Mormon, so what is the difference if you read it or let someone else read it then tell you what is in it?

Then you could also tell them you prayed about it and the Lord said it is a false book. You can use this to your benefit by saying, “I prayed about it and now can you show me where in the K.J.V. it says to pray about the B.O.M. being true.” When you ask this question, the Mormon will most likely take you to James 1:5 and tell you this is the verse that says pray about the B.O.M. Use this chance to show them what the verse really says. Then, add to it James 3:16 and point out there is wisdom that is earthly, sensual, demonic. You could point out that perhaps Joseph Smith was following this wisdom.

So now you avoided them leaving by just reading the book and then were able to show them some good bible verses. Then say, “Not only does the Bible not teach to pray about any book, but Acts 17:11 says to search the scriptures.” Then, for the best part, point out how the B.O.M. also teaches that we need to search the scriptures. You can quote to the Mormon: Alma 14:1, Alma 17:2, and Alma 33:2. To make it even more fun, add D and C 1:14 “and the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people”.

I love that verse because you can point out that the Mormon apostles and the Lord himself said SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES! If you choose not to do that, then you will be cut off. Add one more for even more fun- D and C 131:6 says, “for it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance”. Point out if you don’t search the scriptures and don’t know what they teach, then you are ignorant and cannot be saved. This can open a door to serious bible study. The only problem is that most Mormon Missionaries really don’t have much time. If you are blessed, the 2-3 hours you spend with them might be the only chance you will have.

Most people don’t know this, but if you challenge a Mormon and he goes back to his stake president, they will move him on to a new area. People get mad and think the Mormon is blowing them off when this is not the case. But if you choose to use these verses from the B.O.M., then I suggest you read the book. If you do not read it, but you quote from it, then the Mormon asks if have you ever read the B.O.M. and you say no, then they might not want to talk because they will say or think you read anti-Mormon books and just take verses out of context and twist scripture. So let’s be fair here also. If someone comes to us and they have the Bible and quote a verse from it, but admit they never read the whole book, we will say to them, “You are just misquoting scripture.”

When I pointed out that there are passages of the Bible in the B.O.M., there is no point in trying to prove plagiarism. They could say that there are verses that are the same in other books of the Bible so it does not prove anything. They might also say that the prophets are quoting from that book and point out that Jesus quoted from other books. To go along with the Mormon praying about the B.O.M., he/she might say the B.O.M. is just another testament of Jesus Christ. Point out that the Bible is really 66 books by 40 different authors not just one book as some people think, or two books if they feel the Old and New Testament are two books. So we don’t need another testament as Mormons teach.

I suggest buying 2 books: Mormon doctrine by Bruce r. McConkie and the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer Kimball. Mormon Doctrine is 856 pages from A to Z of many things that Mormons believe, similar to an encyclopedia. Mormons will not give a full meaning of terms even if you ask. Let’s say you asked a Mormon who Jesus is, they would say He is the Son of God, yet they believe He is the spirit-brother to Lucifer. Unless you know this and say that you know the Mormon church says this is who Jesus is, they will not openly admit it.

By their lack of defining terms, they sound very Christian. Let’s look at it like this:

Christian: You are a sinner in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ and He died for you so you could be saved.

Mormon: Yes, I agree 100 percent.

Christian: Who is Jesus?

Mormon: He is the only begotten of the Father, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life and died for my sins.

You can get them by asking if they believe in the trinity. They do deny the trinity, so that is a starting point where you do not need to have terms defined. For the most part, the Mormon will not tell you that he believes, or the church teaches, that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers, Mary and God the Father had a sexual union to conceive Jesus, and she is not really a virgin. In fact, most Mormons are not aware of this teaching. But here are some sources that both Mormons and Christians have or can get access to. Page 466-467 of A.of F. says, “Jesus Christ is the son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, elohim is literally the father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh.” This is the 1982 missionary edition.

Then, read pg. 546-547 in Mormon Doctrine under ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. “Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers”. As every parent knows, the only way you can have kids is through a sexual union. Now, take the Mormon to pg. 743 in Mormon Doctrine. Point out to them that this is the same book and same author and show them “SON OF MARY”. It says, and I quote, “Mary was the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh…. She was carried away in the spirit was overshadowed and conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost.” Ask them which it is. Did the Father sleep with Mary or did the Holy Ghost overshadow her?

A few things can happen here. The author of the A.of F. is James Talmage, a very highly respected scholar of Mormonism. You can point out how he and Bruce agree in one area, yet in another they disagree or contradict each other. Also, if God the Father did sleep with Mary and He was not married to her, then that is a sin. Yet, if he was married to her and she was married to Joseph, then that makes them polygamists. Mormons feel this is a sin. The B.O.M. also teaches this is an abomination in God’s sight, so we have a problem. Show the Mormon Jacob 2:22-35. For our purposes, I will just quote verse 24: “behold David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was ABOMINABLE before me, saith the Lord.” Then remind them again about D and C 1:14.

You can now take them to the Bible and point out John 8:41 the Pharisees accused Jesus of being born through fornication. This would be true if God the Father really did have sex with Mary and take it from here. Now point out to the Mormon the book Miracle of Forgiveness. A lot of good things can go on from here. Let me first point out that the Mormon has no true assurance of salvation and the Mormon believes in grace plus works after all we can do. In D and C 82:7 it says, “and now verily I say unto you, I the Lord will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

But point out Jeremiah 31:34c, “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” So what is the deal? God says in the B.O.M. your sin will return, but in the bible He says I will remember them no more. Ask the Mormon, “Do you want the Lord to remember your sin or forget your sin? Let me add also in case it comes up, a lot of Mormons today do not agree with or like Bruce McConkie. They might give you a list of reasons why they don’t trust him or like him. If they do this, then point out that in Bruce’s day he was a very well respected APOSTLE. Point out that most likely the Mormon you are speaking with is not on the same level as an APOSTLE or have not written books like him. Point out also in D and C 1:14 it says to listen to the APOSTLES or they will be cut off for not doing so.

Now Spencer Kimball adds to this on pg. 170 of Miracle of Forgiveness, he says and I quote, “to return to sin is most destructive to the morale of the individual and gives Satan another hand hold on his victim. Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking. Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load”. Simply put, if you get angry and that is a sin, then you ask for forgiveness. Then, later you get angry again, then the former sin of being angry is put upon you. This will go on forever.

This logic is very sad because the Mormon is under heavy bondage and are never truly forgiven. I would point out, “How can this book be called MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS?” Truly it is a miracle if you are forgiven, and it appears you can never be forgiven. Use this chance to study the Bible with the Mormon and show them scriptures such as 1st John 1:9; then show them Titus 1:2 and tell them that it teaches God cannot lie; then point out Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie. Now point out to them Matthew 18:21-35 about how to forgive. If this is God telling us how to forgive one another, how much more will and does He forgive us? Point out 2 Corinthians 6:2 where God is speaking and He says, “now is the day of salvation.” Point out to the Mormon that if today is our day of salvation as God states, then we can know with total assurance we are and have been forgiven.

Now back to Miracle – one thing you can point out, depending on how your talks go, is as follows: Spencer Kimball considers transgression a sin, if this is true then we have a problem. Mormons feel that the fall of Adam was a good thing and was ordained by God to happen. Yet in Miracle, Spencer Kimball states that transgression is a sin. In the B.O.M., in 2 Nephi 2:19-25, it states that Adam transgressed (verse 22). And in verse 25 it says that “Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have joy.” Why would God say sin is good? It would appear as if God deceived Adam by telling him not to eat of the tree or he would die. Yet God wants them to eat or they could not truly be set free! Is this how God works?

I feel this is probably the best one to show a Mormon and could really get them thinking. It concerns Joseph Smith murdering 2 people.

Pg. 127 in Miracle says, “The murderer denies himself salvation in the celestial kingdom, and in this sense he cannot be forgiven for his crime”. On pg. 128, the prophet Joseph Smith teaches “a murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness”. On pg. 131, Spencer goes on to teach “This is the case with murderers. They could not be baptized for the remission of sins, for they had shed innocent blood.” He goes on to say “TO THE CHURCH MEMBERS THE WORD IS CLEAR“, then he quotes from D and C 42:18, which says, “And now, behold I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come”.

Then he quotes from D and C 42:79, saying, “And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with according to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” Here is the best part show the Mormon – D and C 135:4 says, “WHEN JOSEPH WENT TO CARTHAGE TO DELIVER HIMSELF UP TO THE PRETENDED REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW, TWO OR THREE DAYS PREVIOUS TO HIS ASSASSINATION, HE SAID I AM GOING LIKE A LAMB TO THE SLAUGHTER; BUT I AM CALM AS A SUMMERS MORNING; I HAVE A CONSCIENCE VOID OF OFFENCE TOWARDS GOD AND TOWARDS ALL MEN. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD”.

Notice that Joseph believes he is like Jesus being led to the cross. Now bring the Mormon to D and C 135:7. Here it says Joseph was innocent of any crime and his innocent blood was shed. Bring them to D and C 135:1 where it says “To seal the testimony of this book and the book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the prophet.” Then down farther in verse 1 it says Joseph Smith tried to jump out of the window in the jail. Point out to the Mormon that if Joseph Smith was truly a martyr as Jesus was, he would not have tried to escape. But now for the best part.

Read History of the Church, Volume 7, pg. 102-103. My copy is the 1978 edition. I am sure anybody can still buy History of the Church to show them this passage. I quote from History: “I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed OH! My poor dear brother Hyrum! He however instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step and a determined expression of countenance approached the door, and pulling the six shooter left by brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died. I had in my hands a large strong hickory stick, brought there by brother Markham, and left by him, which I had seized as soon as I saw the mob approach; and while brother Joseph was firing the pistol, I stood close behind him.”

Would a true martyr fight back? No, this does not line up with Joseph saying he is without offence towards God when he killed two people. It also shows he was not lead to the slaughter. It shows a bit of a surprise by his actions proving he did not know it was coming, and Joseph was surprised his brother was killed. If they truly new they were going to be martyred, why was Joseph surprised by the death of his brother?

Some Mormons might say, “Well, he was only defending himself, if so, point out Jesus could have called legions of angels, yet he did not. Jesus never said anything to the people, where Joseph tried to kill and did kill two. If he was a true prophet called by God, then we have a problem. Joseph and Spencer Kimball taught no forgiveness for the murderer. You can really open a talk here.


Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.

The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.

Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.

The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.

Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.

A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”

Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.

Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.

On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.

In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal – is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.

The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.

Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”

Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.

The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”

For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.

Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don’t think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture – both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs – to back these statements up.

I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:

FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.

FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.

SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency–the living Prophet and the first presidency–follow them and be blessed–reject them and suffer.

You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.

Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”

“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch…

Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord…

And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”

It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?

Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.

This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.

Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.

Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.

Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25

This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.

I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.

The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.

We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon’s deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.

1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.

1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.

How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.

1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.

How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.

Enos 20: They ate raw meat.

Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.

Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.

Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.

So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.

Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.

Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.

Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?

Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?

Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?


Now the Mormon most likely will respond as if you are just attacking their church. I suggest responding along these lines. In the P of GR P., under Joseph Smith 2:18-19, it says, “18:My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right and which I should join.19: I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that ALL THEIR CREEDS WERE AN ABOMINATION IN HIS SIGHT; THAT THOSE PROFESSORS WERE ALL CORRUPT; THAT THEY DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEARTS ARE FAR FROM ME, THEY TEACH FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT THEY DENY THE POWER THEREOF.”

In verse 17 it is God the Father and the Son speaking about the state of the Christian Church to Joseph Smith. We are not attacking, we are just responding to Joseph Smith’s statement about our church. Also, read to the Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10: “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth”.

The LDS church teaches that if we do not belong to the Latter Day Saint’s church, then we belong to the church of the devil and are the whore of all the earth. This is a strong statement from a group of people saying they never attack any other beliefs and they are upset we are defending ourselves. Read also “Church of the Devil”, pg. 137; Christendom and Christian Era, pg. 131; and Christians and Christianity, pg. 132, all in Mormon Doctrine. Then read under “First Vision”, page 285-286 in Mormon doctrine. These all give really good descriptions of how Christians are viewed by the Mormon church. If they accuse us of attacking the Mormon Church, they better read up in their own books.

Joseph Smith said the B.O.M. is “the keystone to our religion” H.C. 4:46. He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion?” on pg. 71 in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. So if we show their foundation is built on sand and their belief is unstable, then we can proceed to show them the rock upon which the true church is built and the corner stone is Jesus Christ.

The Mormons believe in grace plus works. An example you can use is: If you were on a beach that had a lifeguard and you were swimming then started to drown, a lifeguard would not just run out and try to save you. Otherwise, in your panic you could kill both the lifeguard and yourself. He will wait until you tire out and start to go down. We cannot kill or pull down Jesus who is our lifeguard, but we could say our screaming and thrashing is our works. They really cannot do anything to save us, they will just tire us out, and we will drown and die. If we call out for the lifeguard “Jesus” to save us, he will, but not while we try to do it ourselves. You can give other ideas and do a bible study and teach the Mormon about grace plus works. This was just one example I like to use.

Something the Mormon might say is that you are only pointing out the apparent bad things in our church and you never point out the good things. If this happens then politely point out that you agree with the Mormon Church on the issues like, marriage is good, homosexuality is a sin, theft is a sin, murder is a sin, ect. Point out a few things you know you agree on and say something like, “See, we agree on some things.” But then point out these good things cannot save you. What happens if you believe many good things yet are wrong on who Jesus is? You may also go from here to wherever you left off.

A question I am asked a lot is, do the Mormons use a normal bible like believers or do they have there own bible like the JW’S? The answer is yes and no. Yes, because they use the K.J.V and it is the same as we use. The only difference would be is that they have Mormon footnotes that we don’t believe in. The no part is that they do have what is called the Joseph Smith’s “New Translation” of the Bible. Here is another good chance to open a talk. This subject is one I use with people like the “Mormon Answer Man.“ D and C 74:3-4 says, “3.Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith Jun, and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again; 4.And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of Translation until it be finished.”

Notice that the Lord told them to do this work and to finish the work. Now add 1 Nephi 3:7 to this. “And it came to pass that I Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.“ When I talk to Mormons I will say, “You know how people have a favorite Bible verse? Well, I have a favorite verse in the B.O.M. and this is it.” You can use this verse when talking about how the Mormons need to be perfect and keep the whole law. Point out how this verse says that God will make it possible for them to be perfect and ask why they can’t seem to follow this logic.

Anyway, back to the J.S.T of the Bible. You might be able to back order a copy of the 1993-1994 Church Almanac from the local Mormon bookstore. On page 339, under 1833, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the Bible.” In the 2003 Almanac on page 536, under 1883, July 2, it says, “The prophet Joseph Smith finished the Translation of the New Testament.” I believe that whatever year we happen to be in, you could buy an updated Almanac and find the year 1883, look under July 2, and it will say this. If it only says he finished the New Testament, try and get the 93-94 edition that says he finished the whole Bible. The reason why is that in the J.S.T. of the Bible, it says on page 10: “COMPLETION” POSSIBLY NOT FINAL. Then, on page 11 it says Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.

On page 258 of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1989 version, he says and I quote, “My feelings at the present time are that, inasmuch as the Lord Almighty has preserved me until today, He will continue to preserve me, by the united faith and prayers of the saints, until I have fully accomplished my mission in this life.” It appears that Joseph Smith was wrong, and he did not fully accomplish his mission. Part of his mission given by God in D and C was to finish the J.S.T. and it said right in there he did not finish the work. Point out that either Joseph Smith was a false prophet or God is a liar/failure for not keeping Joseph Smith alive to finish his job given by God Himself.

In the J.S.T. of the Bible, the first 24 pages talk about all this plus lots of other fun stuff to point out. I suggest buying a copy to use with the Mormon. Point out that in the D and C and the Church Almanac, Joseph Smith was told by God to finish it; in the B.O.M. says that God will grant you the ability to finish what he told you to do. But in the J.S.T., it teaches that it is not finished. So what is the deal – is it, or is it not? Also, they sell the J.S.T. in the local Mormon bookstore and the Mormon will admit that parts of the J.S.T. are found in the footnotes of the B.O.M. and D and C. Plus, a good portion of the P of GR P is the same as the J.S.T., yet they don’t carry it, pass it out, or use it.

The Mormon will say that the Reorganized Latter Day Saints own the rights to the J.S.T. and therefore, it is not trustworthy. I point out that it is kind of funny how they don’t trust the Bible because the Church fell into total apostasy, yet the Lord tells Joseph Smith to fix the Bible and then the Lord allows it to be re-corrupted by falling to the Reorganized Church? That makes zero sense. Also, why does the local Mormon bookstore sell it if you don’t use it? Something you can point out to the Mormon is that they don’t use the J.S.T because they feel it has been corrupted by the RLDS, yet it can be found within the footnotes of their books. Please tell me who decides which verses were good to use and which verses were corrupted? Therefore, you cannot use the rest.

Most of the time, it will get the Mormon thinking without a response, but you also will get a stupid response here and there. There are 13 Articles of Faith, and number 8 says, “We believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God.” Personally, I like to use the J.S.T. on the Mormon. What I tend to do is prepare ahead verses I know I will use with the Mormon and check them in the J.S.T. If they are not found in the J.S.T. that means Joseph Smith did not mess with them. Then, I bring up a verse to the Mormon in the K.J.V. I remind him that if he uses the J.S.T. in his footnotes and God told Joseph Smith to finish the book and your church claims he did finish it, then, due to the fact that Joseph Smith did not change it, there is an implication that God was fine with the way it was. Therefore, we now can go on to what the verse means. For example, the Mormons believe in grace plus works. In Romans 3:28 it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (K.J.V.) Now in Romans 3:28 of the J.S.T. it says, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone without the deeds of the law.”

Here is a mistake that no one caught, but can work to your benefit. I call it a mistake because the Mormon believes in grace plus works, but also down in verse 16 in the J.S.T it teaches grace plus works. The J.S.T. contradicts itself in this area, so point out how the Mormon Church teaches works, yet according to God, works is wrong. Another one would be in Isaiah where there are lots of verses that teach God knows of no other Gods besides Him. In the J.S.T., these verses were never messed with, so you can point out that they were never touched, therefore they must mean what they say.

The Mormon Church teaches what is called the pre-existence. They believe we were spirits born in heaven and then when we were born into earth here, we were born forgetting the pre-existence. It is more in-depth than this, but this is just a simple form of it. The thing I like to point out to the Mormon is in Job where God says to Job, “Where were you when I created the heavens and earth and did all that was done?” Tell the Mormon Titus and Hebrews point out that God cannot lie. If we were really with God before being sent to earth, why did God not just say to Job, “Don’t you remember when I did all this since you were with me?”

For God to say, “Where were you?” implies we were not there, otherwise God lied which it is impossible for Him to do. The Mormon will usually say that the Bible says, “I knew you before you were formed.” You can respond however you want, but I respond by saying that it is like a carpenter who puts plans on paper to build a house. He knows what the house looks like, even though plans are on paper and it is not built.

Another question I like to ask the Mormon is: “If the gospel means good news and you say you believe the good news, then what exactly is the good news of your belief?” They have always told me that it is the fact that the Mormon Church has “Living Prophets” and new “ongoing” revelations. It could change depending on the Mormon, but that is generally what I am told. I will then point out that if they have no hope of salvation and they have hundreds of laws to keep how is this good. To help you out with this logic, you can go to this website: (www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/followingthebrethren.htm. If an error occurs here, go to www.utlm.org. This is the Tanners web site. You should be able to find the Fourteen Fundamentals in following the Prophet. They were given at Brigham Young University and by the former Mormon Prophet/President Ezra Taft Benson. I don’t think any Mormon would argue with you if you show them these. All 14 give scripture – both ours (“The Bible”) and theirs – to back these statements up.

I won’t list all 14, but I will list the ones I like the best and use most often with the list of questions I ask. These are directly quoted:

FIRST: The Prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

SECOND: The living Prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

THIRD: The living Prophet is more important to us than a dead Prophet.

FOURTH: The Prophet will never lead the Church astray.

SIXTH: The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord”, to give us scripture.

ELEVENTH: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the Prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

FOURTEENTH: The Prophet and the presidency–the living Prophet and the first presidency–follow them and be blessed–reject them and suffer.

You can use these anyway you want or how you feel the Lord is leading you. Here are some ways I use these sayings from the prophet. Remember, I pointed out how the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the B.O.M. is the keystone to their religion in H.C. 4:46. In the book Teachings, on page 71 Joseph Smith said, “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion.” Then, according to number 2, you could just throw away the B.O.M. and listen to the Prophet. Then if the Mormon says, “Well that is nonsense add number 3 and say Joseph Smith might have been a Prophet but he is now dead and the living Prophet supersedes the dead one. Then add number 4 to it also and say remember the Prophet will not lead the Church astray.

Now another one I like to ask Mormons and even people like the “Mormon answer man” is found in the J.S.T. on page 10 under the heading “Completion” possibly not final. It goes on to say “The angel who visited Joseph Smith on the night of September 21, 1823, quoted the Prophet Malachi as follows”

“For behold the day cometh that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as stubble, for they that cometh shall burn them saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch…

Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the Prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord…

And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers; if it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.”

It goes on to say “This differs at important points from the King James Version of Malachi, but the Inspired Version is identical with the King James Version.” The above verse is from chapter 4 in Malachi. Now some of the problems we have is this. In both versions it says “Thus saith the Lord” implying God said so, so did God forget what he said, otherwise the angel misquoted what the Lord spoke but then that also is problem. The next option is Joseph wrote it down wrong but then that would mean 2 things, 1. He was not a true Prophet of God and 2, he failed in his mission according to both D and C 1:14 and D and C 74 and according to former president Ezra Taft Benson who gave the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. I have shown this to many Mormons as of yet nobody can seem to give me an answer, they all just say I don’t know what to tell you. The other thing about all this also is Joseph Smith did not included the book of Malachi in the J.S.T. which would imply to me, that nothing was wrong with that book, Therefore how could it be misquoted? I say nothing was wrong with it because the reason it was “Fixed” the bible that is, by Joseph Smith was God told him the Bible had errors in it (A of F number 8). And only this misquoted verse appears in the book so it really makes no sense?

Now lets look at a couple of the really stupid stories in the B.O.M. I would not say to a Mormon these stories are really stupid, I would say how could the B.O.M. be truly inspired with stories like these in it. I might only point out these stories as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, just say here is one last thing to think about when you read your B.O.M. and come across these stories.

This is one story I just recently came across as I read through the B.O.M. Read Alma chapter 55 and I will just point out a few things in this story. First in the Word of Wisdom found in D and C chapter 89 it teaches a Mormon is not allowed to drink alcohol. Now you might think this is not a major doctrine so why bother, here is why. I have pointed out to the Mormon Jesus drank wine and turned water to wine before, and they just responded that it was non-alcoholic wine, in other words just grape juice. So I would point out how Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and you cannot get drunk off of non-alcoholic wine.

Now here is where it relates to the story in Alma 55. In Hebrews 13:8 it says 8:Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In Moroni 10:19 it also teaches that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. But in Alma 55 we find that they were drinking wine to the point they got drunk, And this wine came from the Mormon prophet Moroni. Why can he drink wine but nobody else, This just tells me (my) God is a changing God.

Now more on this story is this. The Lamanites and Nephites were fighting each other and so the Nephites did not want to shed blood so they sent a few of there people over to the Lamanites camp pretending to be Lamanites and brought there wine and got them all drunk and when everybody was good and drunk they took them with out force.

Now to go along with a God who never changes lets add this. Black people today at one time were considered cursed by God and could never hold the priesthood. But later there was a revelation given by God that stated the blacks could hold the priesthood. This revelation was given in Salt Lake City in 1978,now this poses a problem? The problem is the black people are still black, and this implies they still have the mark of the curse. Yet we read in 3 Nephi 2:15 (And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites). Why would God lift the cursed skin from these people back then but not today? Since 1978 till today is about 25 years. The Scriptures teach nothing is impossible for God, but appears it is, and as I pointed out the God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That would appear to be false also. Now for another good story. Read Ether 2:16-25

This story really makes God look stupid. In short the brother of Jared was told by God himself to build a barge, and it was built so airtight that the brother of Jared went back to God and said we have no light in side to see by and no air to breath. So then God tells him to drill a hole in the top and the bottom of the barge, then to put plugs in the hole to keep water from coming in. And God even states if you pull a plug and water comes in put the plug back in and pull the other plug instead, this implies water will come in.

I talked to a Mormon about this story once and pointed out how, if water comes in then it will displace air, therefore you will have less air to breath and eventually you will keep filling up with water to the point where it will sink or you will drown. Plus all the things in the ship will get destroyed by water. I pointed out how if you pull what you think is the plug up top implying you are upright and you pull it and water comes in then it means one of two things, you are either under water and therefore you would sink or you were turned upside down. And if you keep getting thrown about to the point where you cannot tell which way is up then you can or will be seriously hurt.

The response I received from the Mormon is (Rick) you just don’t understand fully what you just read. I really believe this is a good story to show how the B.O.M. cannot be inspired by God it really makes him look stupid. Ok now lets move on to things found in the B.O.M.

We will look at a few things you can point out and say did this really happen or how can this book be truly inspired with things like this in it. Just in about half of the book of Mormon I put together a list of around 110 things either really stupid or that are Christian theology taken from the bible that Mormon’s deny like the trinity, or saved by grace alone. I will not list everything so it would be best if you go through and read it and put together your own list. A lot of what is listed is only parts of a verse to say on space and time, please read for context before pointing this stuff out to the Mormon. Nothing is twisted or taken out of context, I just do not want to make an entire book here so it is easier to just list the part I want to focus on.

1 Nephi 1:2: The Jews use the language of the Egyptians.

1 Nephi 1:8: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he THOUGHT HE SAW GOD sitting upon his throne.

How can you say I thought I saw god? You either did or did not.

1 Nephi 16:18: And it came to pass that as I Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.

How can you break a bow made of fine steel? You could take cheap steel and beat it over a rock or on something very hard and try as you might you will have a really hard time trying to break it. Also if you have a bow you will do all you can not to use it in such a way as to possibly break it in such a careless manor.

Enos 20: They ate raw meat.

Every body knows Gold, Diamonds and Pearls are rare therefore most precious but have you ever heard of ZIFF as a precious metal.

Mosiah 11:8: Ziff (a precious thing) king Noah used. To this day it has never been heard of or found. It must be really precious and rare to still be undiscovered.

Alma 10:4-9: First the guy (Amulek) in this story says in verses 5:Never the less after all this I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I say I never had known much of these things; but behold; I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power.

So which is it? Then it goes on to say that Amulek admits he openly rebelled against God and is living in rebellion to Him. Then God sends and Angel to him telling him I will use you this day to feed a Prophet of God. That would be like God speaking to Charles Mansion and saying I will use you this day to feed Billy Graham.

Now in Alma 10:17: This same Amulek who just admitted he was rebelling against God, so we know it is not an Angel in the form of a man or God himself in the form of a man goes on in verse 17 to say he (Amulek) perceived their thoughts. How can a mortal man know your thoughts or read your mind so to speak. Only God can do this. It is not stated that God gave him the power to do so. In case a Mormon says this is the reason it happened.

Alma 13:18: Claims Melchizedek had a Father, this denies the Bible.

Alma 19:29: Jesus is mentioned but the date is B.C. 90. The reason why this is mentioned is because Jesus took the queen by the hand and lifted her up. But there are many verses that talk about the “Coming” in the future time of Jesus. So is he coming or is he here already?

Alma 21:6: We do believe God will save ALL men. Well they believe wrong because we know not all men will be saved. The B.O.M. even teaches some will go to hell?

Alma 24:19: And thus we see that they buried their weapons of peace, or they buried the weapons of war, for peace. Which is it?

Now lets move on to the Doctrine in the B.O.M.

Most of this will be self explanatory otherwise if needed it will be explained why it is here.

First the phrase “And it came to pass” is used something like 1,600 times in the B.O.M. I am not sure of the exact number. But this phrase alone would remove around 20 pages of the B.O.M alone.

1 Nephi 2:19: And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying; blessed art thou, Nephi, because of thy faith, for thou hast sought me diligently, with lowliness of heart. This is listed because he searched for God and it would stand to reason he search the scriptures. And many Mormons only pray about this not search them.

1 Nephi 3:7: The Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. In other words the Mormon is taught to live according to the law, but they fail at this. According to this verse they should not fail and should be able to fulfill the entire law if this is what God real requires of them as they are taught.

1 Nephi 11:21: Behold the Lamb of God yea, even the son of the Eternal Father. If you need to pull out the dictionary to define Everlasting or Endless with the Mormon I suggest you do it. According to this verse and others in the B.O.M. they state God is Eternal or Endless yet on pg 345 of Teachings it says God was one a man that exalted to Godhood.

To prove this point out D and C 132:4 to the Mormons and they will think you are going to argue the issue of plural wives. Verse 4:For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant. Ask what exactly everlasting means. This is how you can get them to define everlasting in their words. Then go back to the dictionary and the issue of god.

1 Nephi 11:32: Everlasting God

1 Nephi 13:6: I beheld this great and Abominable Church; and I saw the devil was the foundation of it. Here is an example of how if the Mormon says you’re picking on my Church, let them know this is how they view our church. Anyone that is not part of there Church belongs to the Devil.

1 Nephi 13:40: That the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be Saved. First it says the lamb who is Jesus is the Son of God, This is important because there are verses that say the Devil is an Angel. If Jesus was an Angel then how can he know be a son.

I know they will say we will all be sons some day. Point out in Hebrews 1:5 For which of the Angels did he ever say: You are my son today I have begotten you. Hebrews 5:5 repeats this. Then add to this Titus 1:2 God cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18, It is impossible for God to lie. Now the Mormon might say well we don’t trust the Bible because it is corrupted, so point out Enos 6: And I Enos, knew that God could not lie.

So go back to Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5. Point out this is God saying this and he cannot lie. If they stay and continue to talk you’re doing good.

2 Nephi 2:7-9: These verses say Jesus offers himself as a sacrifice for Sin, to answer the ends of the law. And that no flesh can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits and mercy, and grace of the holy messiah who layth down his life. They that believe in him should be saved. No mention anywhere of any works. Again God cannot lie.

Mormons believe God is Omniscience meaning knows all things, as do I. My point in this is, if I can see no mention of works in these verses and it leads me to believe no works are needed to be saved, and therefore if they really are needed then I would think God is smart enough to figure this out. And not leave me with many unanswered questions that would cause me to not be saved.

2 Nephi 2:17-18: Teaches the Devil was an Angel of God and fell from heaven then deceived Adam and Eve to cause them to get kicked out of the garden. Yet Mormons believe it was God’s design for this to happen. I don’t believe it was Gods design for Lucifer to fall, he had free will and chose to fall. I don’t believe he was created to become evil.

2 Nephi 9:8-9: Says God the Father is Eternal and that we can end up like Lucifer being shut out in misery forever. No mention of a second chance or baptism after death.

2 Nephi 24:12-15: These verses are very much like Isaiah talking about the fall of Lucifer from Heaven. This verse says Lucifer was thrown out of Heaven for trying to be like the most High God. What is good about this verse is it goes against what Mormons believe about Jesus and Lucifer going to God with there own plans for the redemption of earth.

It also says, God is the most High God. How can this be so if God had a Father who before him was a God. If it is the Mormons goal to attain Godhood why was it wrong for Lucifer to try doing the same thing?

2 Nephi 26:12: Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God. Notice it says THE Eternal God. Was Jesus an Angel that became a God or is he GOD?

2 Nephi 27:12: This verse is speaking about the B.O.M. it does not mention the book by name but it mentions being viewed by 3 witnesses and how they shall testify of it’s Truth. So if this book is true why do Mormons not truly believe these things. Mormon Doctrine that is used today truly goes against the teachings of the B.O.M.

To go along with the last verse here is,

2 Nephi 31:21: And now, Behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven where by man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the Doctrine of Christ, and the only and True Doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God with out end. Amen. The Trinity and Salvation with out works is also mentioned.

Jacob 1:19: Says if we do not teach the word of God with all diligence, then the blood of the people will be upon our heads. Point out as the Mormon is getting ready to leave, because they feel you are just picking on them that they are following this verse by leaving. Point out that they are not enduring like the Mormons of old. Then add for fun this next verse as they are leaving.

Alma 26:29-30 29: And we have entered into their houses and taught them, and we have taught them in their streets; yea, and we have taught them upon their hills; and we have also entered into their temples and their synagogues and taught them; and we have been cast out, and mocked, and spit upon, and smote upon our cheeks; and we have been stoned, and taken and bound with strong cords, and cast into prison; and through the power and wisdom of God we have been delivered again. 30: And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul; and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some.

Now remember we are not letting the Mormon in to teach us. But the Mormon thinks he/she is doing that. Yet when we point out error they tend to run. Just say how can I truly believe if I notice a perceived problem, yet just overlook it and believe it in blind faith. In light of Scriptures teaching to search the Scriptures, and when Scriptures teach you have the “Truth” yet you wont share it. Point out they most likely had questions themselves and someone took the time to talk and not run. See where I’m going here?

Jacob 3:11: That ye may not become Angels to the Devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death. Mormons deny the hell, Christians believe in.

Jacob 6:10: And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment.

Jacob 7:23

Alma 14:1 17:2 33:2: All say search the Scriptures, which the Mormons don’t seem to do.

Mosiah 1:6: O my sons, I would that ye should remember that these sayings are true, and also that these records are true. This is referring to all the records that end up forming the B.O.M.

If these things are true then ask why Mormonism denies these teachings.

Mosiah 3:5: The lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all Eternity to Eternity. So was God, God in the beginning or was he a man that became a God?

Mosiah 3:11-13: Says Jesus Blood Atones, for sin of fallen man. And Salvation only comes through faith and repentance in Christ alone. No mention of works. It also says, Christ sent his Holy Prophets to declare this to us.

Mosiah 3:17-19: Salvation only in the name of Christ, no works mentioned.

Mosiah 7:26-28: Christ is the Father God. Not a God.

Mosiah 12:31-34: Now it teaches you must follow the law to be saved. So which is it, grace alone, or by works.

Mosiah 15:1-5: This teaches the Trinity, and that God the Father is Eternal.

Mosiah 28:3: The Gospel should be declared unto every creature, because their is endless torment that awaits them other wise.

Mosiah 28:7: Eternal life by believing. No mention of good works or having to enter the temple to be saved.

Alma 3:26-27: People judged according to their works. Resulting in Eternal joy or misery. No mention of second chance or baptism for the dead.

Mosiah 15:26-27: If you die in your Sins you will perish for the Lord cannot redeem you after death. So much for second chance theology or baptism for the dead.

Mosiah 25:13-18: People are baptizing with no mention of having any priesthood authority to do so.

Mosiah 26:22-27: People that are redeemed by Christ can sit on his right hand in heaven. No mention of 3 degrees of glory. Also if you are not redeemed you will burn in everlasting fire.

Mosiah 26:30-35: As often as you repent you will be Forgiven. This denies Mormon Doctrine and the Miracle of Forgiveness. Did Spencer Kimbal not read this part?

Alma 7:10: The Virgin Mary was over shadowed. This denies what Mormons teach and the verse I already quoted.

Alma 10:2: Handwriting on the wall. This is similar to the account in Daniel.

Alma 10:28: Some one is called a child of the Devil. Mormons teach we are all brothers. Even brothers of Lucifer. Many Mormons have told me Lucifer is there brother. But the context in this saying does not imply we are all brothers as Mormons teach.

Alma 11:21-41: A debate between to people asking if there is only one true God or not. Turns out there is only one true God.

Alma 11:44: The Trinity, Which Mormonism denies.

Alma 12:14-17: Judgment according to our works, ending in a second death.

Alma 13:7-9: Jesus no beginning of days.

Alma 13:20: The Scriptures are before you. (B.O.M.) If you deny them it is to your own destruction.

Alma 19:36: The Spirit was poured out upon all people. This is important because Mormonism teaches the Spirit can only be in one place at one time. So how can he be poured out upon many people at one time. Page 359, in M.D under Holy Ghost says (He can only be in one place at one time). Then on page 753, of M.D under Spirit of the Lord it says (The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead). It is interesting they mention the Trinity in this manor when they deny the Trinity.

Also on page 753, it goes on to say (The Spirit which is the Holy Ghost is a revelator). So point out the Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost or Spirit according to Apostle Bruce m, can only be in one place at one time. Did he not read Alma 19:36?

Alma 21:9: Redemption through Christ alone. No works or temple service mentioned.

Alma 24:9-11: There is forgiveness for the person(s) who commit murder. This denies the teachings of Spencer Kimbal in the book Miracle. Again did he not read this part?

According to Mormonism the atonement took place in the garden of Gethsemane not on the Cross. It happened when Jesus sweated great drops of blood. Yet in this next verse it says,

Alma 24:13: Through the Blood of the Son of our great God, which shall be SHED for the atonement of our sins. Notice it did not say sweated, and you cannot shed blood by sweating.

Alma 26:14: The most High God. Again if there is a God(s) above God the Father how can he be the most High?

Mormons pray for a burning in the bosom to know if the B.O.M. is true. Yet in this next verse it denies that.

Alma 30:43-46 Korihor asks Alma for a sign to prove God is real. Alma rebukes him saying the Scriptures are laid out, You also have the testimony of the Holy Prophets and the creation as a sign. And he rebukes him harshly, Show this to Mormons when they mention the burning in the bosom.

Alma 30:60: Says the Devil drags people to Hell. I thought there was no Hell?

Well this is only really just a few verses out of the hundreds. This is only half the book at best. So now let’s take a look at the Book Doctrines of Salvation. This book was put out in 1956, it is now out of print. I believe you could find it in a used bookstore, or get a copy off of ebay. Most Mormons I met have this or read it so they already should be familiar with it.

This is the thing I want to point out. Joseph Smith said. “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”. History of the Church vol 4, pg 461 and Mormon Doctrine pg 99 under Book of Mormon.

He also said “Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” Teachings pg 71, and pg 99 of M.D also. But now in Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198 Joseph F Smith 10th president and Prophet of the Church said, “In my judgment there is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, which we say our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.”

I am going to tell you why. When I say that do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain Doctrine and Revelation and Commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a History containing the Doctrine and Commandments given to the people anciently. That applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the Doctrine and the History and the Commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.

But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter-Day Saints. More precious than gold, the Prophet says we should treasure it more than the riches of the whole earth.

Notice he said about the B.O.M. It is Doctrine and History of people that dwelt here. Yet Joseph Smith said the B.O.M contains the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel. It would appear as if another Prophet of the Church disagrees with him. But lets go one step further with this thought. Lets add what Ezra Taft Benson said, who also happens to be a Prophet and President of the Church as these two were also.

Under the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren, it says under number 2 “The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works”. Of these 3 prophets who is right? They all disagree on what is the most important. Remember number 4 says the “Prophet will never lead the Church astray.” They’re not necessarily leading the Church astray, but there is confusion as to who is right.

If the D and C is more important then the B.O.M. why is it not passed out by the Mormon Missionary’s. Yet if the Prophet is more important, why pass out any book? It leaves to many questions. If it is true that the B.O.M. is nothing more then a recorded of ancient people, then how can I get nearer to God by reading it as Joseph Smith states?

Now let me touch on the Journal of Discourses. I personally like to talk about the Adam God Doctrine. But whatever topic you choose from the Journals, I find most Mormons will say we don’t use or trust them because they were written in short hand and cannot be accurate. They might also say they did not have the same technology back then as we do today that is why they do not trust it..

I will point out a few things. 1. In the newspaper almost daily I see a section set-aside for corrections. If we can make many mistakes today with our “Technogaly” then we should except they also were not perfect.

2. When I discuss Adam God, Mormons, say that was just his mere opinion. Point out that the “Prophet will not lead the Church” astray number 4. The Prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the lord” to give us Scripture. number 6. If he does not need to say “Thus saith the Lord”, then how can we decide if he is giving us Scripture or his mere opion.

To show it was not mere opion read to then the Adam God teaching, and show them the part that says this. “My next sermon will be to both Saint and Sinner.” “One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day.” This does not sound like mere opion. He goes on to later say, “Every man upon the earth, professing Christian or non professing, must here it, and will know it sooner or later.”

Now for the best part. “Now let all who may hear these Doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their Salvation or Damnation.” Notice he said they are Doctrines. Then in volume 13 B Young says on pg 95, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.” On page 264 of volume 13 Orson Hyde another Apostle of the Church said, “When B Young sends forth his Discourses they are as good as Scripture found in the Bible.”

If this still does not get the Mormon thinking, you can point out in both the Mormon Encyclopedia and M.D. That they both say that the, (King Follet Discourses) given by J Smith in volume 6, is his greatest sermon ever given. A lot of today’s doctrine comes from that sermon, so why can they pick and chose from the Journals yet I cannot.

You can also point out that in 1925 the Mormon church put out a book called (Discourses of B Young). They republished it in the mid 50’s. The entire book is sayings of B Young taken from the Journal of Discourses. The Church feels most of what he said was good. It is funny though that between the 1925 edition and the 50’s edition there have been around 200 pages removed.

One other thing you can show the Mormon is page 216 in volume 14 of the J.O.D. president George A Smith said “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if it’s preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

Well it is my goal to better equip the saints to witness to Mormons. This is just a small amount of information in reality to what is really out there. I am trying to give some ideas on how to possibly approach Mormonism, with the books most people have or can get. I also just showed a few things with the “Rare” or hard to get books for people who either have them or will get them.

It is my desire to see Mormons come to Christ, If anyone would like to write me with questions or looking for ideas please feel free to write me at my email account. It is (rickshelli@hotmail.com) please put in the subject line Mormonism so I know it is not junk mail or a virus. Please feel free to hand out this information to who ever you feel will benefit from it. This is to be given freely to help equip the saints. I pray this will be a blessing to all who need the help and read it. RICK BEAUDIN.

 

Printed up, this will be around 26 pages.

Are Mormons Christians?

Latter Day Saints, also known as LDS, desperately want to be known as Bible-believing Christians. LDS will tell you that they believe the same gospel as Christians do, and they get highly offended if you tell them they have a different gospel and are not Bible-believing Christians. Sadly, more and more Bible-believing Christians are believing the LDS are in fact Bible-believing Christians just like us. It’s getting to the point that Christians are joining hands with LDS and allowing them to work with them in sharing the gospel of Jesus with non-believers.

Well, here are plenty of quotes from LDS leaders and prophets sharing exactly what they think of the Bible and Christians. Read them and then tell me, do you honestly believe they are still Bible-believing Christians? And if you do, can you support it from the Bible? I will break these quotes down into different subjects to make this a little easier to understand.

What LDS prophets and presidents have said about Christians:
Read 1 Nephi 14:10 “behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

Brigham Young: “with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world” (Journal of discourses 8:199).

3rd president John Taylor (Brigham young quotes Mr Taylor) “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth” (J.O.D 6:176).

Heber C. Kimball “Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (J.O.D 5:89).

Now, let’s think about what these quotes all just said. LDS want to be known as and called Bible-believing Christians, but a few original LDS prophets and presidents have all clearly stated what they think of Christians, so why would LDS want to be known as Christians? If these prophets were to come back from the grave and were alive today, then they would not even recognize the LDS church today.

The LDS prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, stated that LDS do not believe in the same Jesus as we Bible-believing Christians do.


In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President [Gordon B.] Hinckley spoke of those outside the [LDS] Church who say Latter-day Saints “do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.” (Church News, June 20, 1998, 7)

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).

If the prophet claims that he does not believe in the same Jesus as we Bible-believing Christians do, then how can LDS claim to believe that the LDS prophet? The LDS prophet is the only person who speaks for God in the LSD church, and he says we do not have the same gospel, so why do the LDS claim to believe in the same Jesus as we do?

A tract published by the LDS Church in 1973 says this:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept Him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that His blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (What the Mormons Think of Christ, 22)


10th LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that “man may commit certain grievous sins–according to his light and knowledge–that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone–so far as in his power lies–for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail…. Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that men may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:134, 135).

LDS at one time taught the blood of Christ cannot cleanse us or save us. As a Bible-believing Christain, do you agree with that? If so, we need to talk. If not, then how can LDS claim to be Christians?

Sadly, many Christians no longer believe the Bible as the Word of God. If you claim to be a Christian and dont believe the Bible, then I question your salvation. But that aside, if you believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and you feel LDS are Christians, then read these quotes.


Article eight of the LDS Articles of Faith reads, “We believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly …”

Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church, declared, “Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 327).

According to the Book of Mormon, only fools believe the Bible is a sufficient spiritual guide.

2 Nephi 29:6 states, “Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible.”

Probably one of the most vocal LDS critics of the Bible was Apostle Orson Pratt. He claimed, “… who in his right mind could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?” (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pg. 47.)

The Book of Mormon states that “when it [i.e., the Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord” (1 Ne. 13:24), but “after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, . . . many plain and precious things [are] taken away from the book” (1 Ne. 13:28).

“The words contained in this Bible are merely a history of what is gone by; it was never given to guide the servant of God in the course he should pursue, any more than the words and commandments of God, given to a generation under one set of circumstances, would serve for another generation under another set of circumstances. There must be something to suggest or to draw forth the command to answer the circumstance under which we are placed at the time” (Apostle Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854, Journal of Discourses 2:75).

“…who in his right mind, could for one moment, believe the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.47.)

“As all informed persons know, the various versions of the Bible do not accurately record or perfectly preserve the words, thoughts, and intents of the original inspired authors” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.383).

Bible-believing Christians teach and believe that God the Father is eternal, not created, nor did He just come to be, yet LDS teach otherwise.

Milton Hunter from the council of the seventy, gospel through the ages pg 104: “Mormon prophets have CONTINUOSLY taught the sublime truth that God the eternal father was once a mortal man.”

President Joseph.feilding.Smith, in the improvement era, vol 18 pg 81;
The PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH, teachings, pg 345-346;
Apostle James Talmage, Articles of Faith, pg 430;
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer
Presdint lorenzo snow, gospel through the ages, pg 104
Apostle Orson Hyde, Quorum of the twelve; all taught and believed God was once a man.

Galatians 1:8-9 says, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

According to the Bible, if anyone teaches another gospel, they will be eternally damned. Mormons teach another gospel. People who claim to be Christians, but believe Mormons are also Christians, have and are teaching another gospel.

Cowardly Atheists.

I will be doing my live radio show on Sat the 16th and 23rd of August 2014 and will be talking about Atheism. I will mention this issue on my show, but want to write about it also since I’m getting tired of Atheists who lie, are hypocrites and cowards, then claim us Christians have no clue.

I heard on the news about a group of atheists who were crying about a restaurant who gives people 15 percent off their bill for praying before eating. I came across this blog in my search. http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/restaurant-give-discounts-to-customers-praying-in-public/

Now it appears that this blog author is a pretty staunch Atheist and this is what his blog says about the author.
Jerry A. Coyne, Ph.D is a Professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at the University of Chicago and a member of both the Committee on Genetics and the Committee on Evolutionary Biology. Coyne received a B.S. in Biology from the College of William and Mary. He then earned a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology at Harvard University in 1998, working in the laboratory of Richard Lewontin. After a postdoctoral fellowship in Timothy Prout’s laboratory at The University of California at Davis, he took his first academic position as assistant professor in the Department of Zoology at The University of Maryland. In 1996 he joined the faculty of The University of Chicago.

Now compare what he claims to know and how supposedly smart he is with his degrees and position. Compare that to me, a guy who only has a GED and was kicked out of 2 schools and dropped out of a 3rd. Now I wrote this Guy a private email and here is the exact exchanges.

My first reply to Jerry:
Hello Jerry,
My name is Rick Beaudin. I came across your website when I did Google search about praying in restaurants. I have a website and live internet radio show that airs every Saturday from 3-4pm central time. My website and radio show is called Fighting for Truth. My web address is
www.fightingfortruth.com

I’m writing to ask you if you would be interested in coming on my show and being interviewed by me. Thanks, Rick Beaudin.

His reply to me:
Your website has been blocked, and I’d have to be able to see it to give a response.

Now before I add more, let me say this, You really need to see my website to decide if you want to talk to me? That tells me you will only talk with people who agree with you.

My second response to Jerry?

I just clicked on the link I sent you and it said it was blocked. But then I typed the whole address into the web bar and it came up. Maybe you could try that. Rick

Jerry’s reply to me:
No thank you. I’ve done interviews on Christian stations before, and I invariably get sandbagged. No doubt you want to criticize my views on evolution or atheism, rather than honestly ask me question. So I respectfully decline. Please do not contact me again.

Now before I add more, let me say this? I never said what we would talk about, so instead of asking in advance what I would ask Jerry, or asking to keep it to a certain topic Jerry just dismisses me and judges me in advance and assumes what I will do. Now if Christians do that to Atheists, they cry, but they can do this to us. This just clearly show that at least Jerry has a bias and really did not want to talk, so he makes excuses to not talk with me. Whats he scared of?

So this was my reply to Jerry:
I will read your reply on my next show and point out you judge me with out knowing what I would ask and point out with all your degrees you cant handle debating me.

Jerry says this to me:
I just don’t want to waste my time with you as your podcast appears to be marginal and not important. Also, I should point out that publicizing private emails is really not something you should do, but if you want to go ahead and be a jerk, go ahead and do so. Violating privacy like that is a truly Christian thing to do–Lol as you say.

Why don’t you read that, too. Anyway, I asked you not to bother me again, and you did.

Now let me say this,
Jerry wrote me back so fast he did not have time to listen to my pod-casts and make an honest and informed judgement in order to say this, your podcast appears to be marginal and not important. This tells me that despite all his degree’s and “Training” He is bias and does not care about truth. Then He must not be as smart as he claims since he said this, “Also, I should point out that publicizing private emails is really not something you should do”

In what I posted, where did I say, I would post his private email? I never said that, so it tells me Jerry is not really reading what I wrote and really does not care what I said. So how is this being open minded, Honestly caring about facts and truth and being an honest atheist? It’s not.

So this was my Final reply to Jerry:
I wont publish your email or anything, I will simply tell people an atheist is unable and willing to honestly debate a christian. My next two shows over the next two weeks are about atheists, Tune in and listen, you might learn something.

So I’m pointing this out because I’m tired of Atheists speaking out about Christians Like were clueless Idiots, while they themselves are running scared. Now if someone thinks I made all of this up, then feel free to follow the link to this guys website, do some searching, and then contact Jerry and tell him what I posted and ask if this really is true or not. If he claims no, I’m lying, then he can sue me for slander, but since I have all of our email exchanges saved, and can prove this all went down, he cannot deny it and therefore, I have a pretty serious Atheist running scared. LOL.

Homosexuality part 2

This is part two of the homosexuality subject. I’m focusing on the three verses that Matthew uses from the NT.
Let’s recap the three verses Matthew uses from the NT. They are: Romans 1:26-27, 1st Corinthians 6:9, and 1st Timothy 1:10

Romans 1:26-27 “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

1st Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,”

1st Timothy 1:10 “for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,”

Let’s start with the verses from Romans. Matthew tries to make the claim that what Paul really is condemning is lust and lustful behavior. If that was true, then Paul would have plainly stated that. If you read the Bible, people are pretty clear in what they mean. They don’t say one thing and mean another. Paul also clearly states that men with men and women with women is unnatural and that men with women and women with men is natural.

Matthew claims that Paul never mentions love, commitment and faithfulness. Why would he? Paul was clear that it’s a vile passion and unnatural.
Now, Matthew only quotes verses 26-27 and claims Paul is targeting the issue of lust, but if we back up and add verse 25 for context, it changes the context. This is what 25 says: “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.” If you add verse 26 and read verses 25 and 26 together, this is what you have:

25-26: “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:”

Notice what 26 starts out saying: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections” What Cause? According to Matthew, it’s lust. But, if you back up, the real reason is that they changed the truth of God for a lie, not lust, as Matthew says. The homosexuals claim we cherry-pick verses and leave things out, yet, it is Matthew who left out verse 25 and cherry-picked the verse he wanted. Matthew claims Paul is saying this all stems from a burst of excess, yet that’s not what Paul says. Matthew claims that in the ancient world, men who practiced homosexuality, were married and therefore it stemmed from lust. The problem with this reasoning is that you need to prove that. Bring in historical evidence to support this, otherwise it is simply your opinion and theory.

Even if you could somehow make the case for this theory, I have proved in part one, God condemned homosexuality in the OT, which is also part of the ancient world. Claiming you’re married and having gay sex on the side is still outside of God’s plan, and you’re not able to claim you’re a true believer in God living like this.

Matthew tries to use 1 Corinthians 11:14. “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?”
This is the only verse in the Bible that says this, but many verses in both Old and New Testament claim homosexuality is wrong and condemned in the eyes of God. Paul does not say having long hair is a sin, or that it is an abomination. We’re not told men with long hair will be kept out of heaven. The verse claims nature declares men with long hair is a shame, not God. Also, as I said before, define long? One person has hair two inches long, and that’s long compared to a bald guy; but a guy with hair that’s 6 inches long is really long compared to the guy with hair that’s only two inches, and now that 2 inch hair is no longer long, but seems short.

Now, let’s look at 1st Corinthians 6:9-10.
1Co 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

It is very plain that these verses say that homosexuals will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. It’s not just saying homosexuals but a list of other people who will not either. For Matthew Vines’ purpose and mine, were only talking about homosexuals.

Now, I will let Matthew speak for himself on this subject. This was taken from Matthew’s Tumbler account. http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

Matthew Vines says:

The word translated as “abusers of themselves with mankind” in the King James is a compound word. In the Greek, it is “arsenokoites,” “arsen” meaning “male,” and “koites” meaning “bed,” generally with a sexual connotation. And so the argument is that we can determine the meaning of this term from its etymology: male plus bed in the plural form must, then, refer to men who sleep with other men. But there are several problems with this approach. First, simply looking at a word’s component parts doesn’t necessarily tell us what it means. There are many English words where this approach would fail: for example, the words “understand,” “butterfly,” “honeymoon.” The component parts here – “honey” and “moon” – really don’t tell us anything about what that word actually means. In order to understand what a word means, you have to consider how it’s used in context. The problem with the word “abusers of themselves with mankind” – arsenokoites – is that it was used extremely rarely in ancient Greek. In fact, Paul’s use of it in 1 Corinthians is considered to be its first recorded use anywhere. And after Paul, the few places that it appears tend to be in lists of general vices, which are not the most helpful of contexts. Fortunately, however, many of these lists are grouped by category, and this Greek word consistently appears among sins that are of a primarily economic nature rather than those that are primarily sexual. This and some other contextual data indicate that this term referred to some kind of economic exploitation, likely through sexual means. This may have involved forms of same-sex behavior, but coercive and exploitative forms. There is no contextual support for linking this term to loving, faithful relationships. The other word, “effeminate,” in the King James is “malakos” in the Greek. This was used a lot in ancient Greek, and it means “soft.” It was a form of trash talking, like saying “You’re fat,” “lazy,” “marshmellow,” or “chicken.”

In the final passage, 1 Timothy 1:10, the first word meaning – “abusers of themselves with mankind” – reappears in a list of people Paul says the law was written against. Here, the translation is “them that defile themselves with mankind.” The translation issues and debates here are the same as those from 1 Corinthians. Again, the strongest inference that can be drawn from other uses of this term is that it referred to economic exploitation through sexual coercion — possibly involving same-sex activity, but a very different kind than what we are discussing.

Back to what Rick says:
We see this from blue letter bible Greek Lexicon: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G733

“one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual”

KJV Translation Count — Total: 2x
The KJV translates Strongs G733 in the following manner: abuser of (one’s) self with mankind (1x), defile (one’s) self with mankind (1x).
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon

G733
Word / Phrase / Strong’s Search
Concordance Results Using KJV

Strong’s Number G733 matches the Greek ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs),
which occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Tools specific to 1Co 6:9

1Co 6:9

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” G733

Tools specific to 1Ti 1:10

1Ti 1:10

“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, G733 for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

Lexicon :: Strong’s G733 – arsenokoitēs
ἀρσενοκοίτης
Transliteration
arsenokoitēs

Pronunciation
är-se-no-koi’-tās (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)
From ἄρρην (G730) and κοίτη (G2845)

Vines points out that the word is a compound term made up of arsēn, which means “male” and koitē that means “bed” with it referring to a bed being used in a sexual manner (we get the word ‘coitus’ for sexual intercourse from it). To make his case against the word meaning homosexual sex, Vines argues that you cannot easily take compound terms and create a word that has an explicit meaning from them. He uses the words “Butterfly” and “Honeymoon” as examples.

However, this argument that Vines and other homosexual apologists use overlooks something critically important. They fail to mention that the Bible of Paul and of his readers in the first century was the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament. Why is that important?

When you look at the Septuagint’s translation of Leviticus 20:13, which is one of the verses condemning homosexual behavior, something very interesting is found: the compound word Paul uses for homosexual in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy:

The text could not be any more plain – arsēn and koitē are side by side and form the homosexual term that Paul used in his New Testament epistles. This fact devastates Vines’ argument that asserts a person cannot know the real meaning behind many words formed via compound terms. In this case, it is very clear.

Moreover, Vines and others promoting homosexual Christianity admit that the Leviticus passage condemns homosexual sex, but they attempt to diffuse the prohibition by saying there are “many things that these passages say that don’t apply to Christians today.”

Paul evidently disagreed where God’s holiness code is in view, and in particular, where homosexuality is concerned.

The passages in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy dealing with homosexual behavior do condemn homosexual sex and warns those practicing that lifestyle of the consequences that will come from living that lifestyle. However, it is interesting in Vines’ message that he didn’t keep reading in 1 Corinthians where Paul says: “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:11). Why does he ignore this verse?

Vines doesn’t cite the passage because Paul’s statement destroys the idea that homosexuals can be called Christians. Paul tells his readers that such practices were evidences of their old life, but now that they have been born again, they have new holy affections and desires, which stand in opposition to the way they used to live.

Now onto the final verse, 1st timothy 1:10 “For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

This is what Matthew Vines says about this passage:
In the final passage, 1 Timothy 1:10, the first word – “abusers of themselves with mankind” – reappears in a list of people Paul says the law was written against. Here, the translation is “them that defile themselves with mankind.” The translation issues and debates here are the same as those from 1 Corinthians. Again, the strongest inference that can be drawn from other uses of this term is that it referred to economic exploitation through sexual coercion—possibly involving same-sex activity, but a very different kind than what we are discussing.

Rick says, Go back and read my part 1 topic and re-read what I just wrote. Homosexual lifestyle goes against sound doctrine.

Homosexuality issue part 1

In part one, I cover the three verses from the OT that Matthew mentions. Part two will cover the three verses from the NT that Matthew mentions.

This newest post will cover again the issue of homosexuality and the ignorance of many people who try to defend it.
I have noticed a serious trend among people who range from atheists to people who claim many different various religions. Here is the issue. I was looking on a friend’s facebook account at the topic of homosexuality and how an author, Matthew Vines, had a video that talked about 6 bible verses that talk about homosexuality. According to him, this is what they really mean. So here is a link to view the video M-Vines. I posted that I have a website and some podcasts stating I did a two-part series covering these verses from a friend of Matthew; his name is Justin Lee. I simply said that I can and have addressed all the issues that Matthew brings up, and less than 5 minutes later someone posts that they will not go to my website and stated how ignorant I am.

I pointed out to this person a few truths. They were the ignorant person since they admitted they don’t care what I said and did not want to know what I said. They admitted they will not visit my website, so how can they claim I am ignorant when they don’t know what I said? This also shows a huge amount of hypocrisy since this person as well as many others claim we Christians cherry-pick Bible verses and don’t really know the Bible as well as we claim. All these types of people can do is call names and attack others, but have no real answers and cannot really defend what they believe. I sadly find that this happens way more often than people care to admit or think about. The issue is that people are claiming Christians are wrong or were ignorant, all the while these people won’t and cannot honestly debate people like me or show us where and how we’re wrong. In addition to my two podcasts on this issue, I will also write about it and add a few more things that were not in my radio shows.

First, I want to ask a question. Why do people, be it atheists or people of any given religion give Christians a hard time on the issue of homosexuality and claim we cherry-pick verses from the Bible, or claim we hate gay people, and they devote youtube videos and create websites to debate all of these things? Yet, when it comes to looking at what Muslims believe and teach, the homosexuals are silent on this issue. I think it’s really sad that even the homosexuals will not go after Muslims on this issue. I don’t see homosexuals going over to Iran, Iraq, or any heavy populated country that is run by Muslims. They openly claim that they kill homosexuals and do not tolerate them. Funny how I never meet a Christian that says, we will kill you for being gay. If you go over to Israel or any country that has lots of Christians running around, they’re not claiming that they will kill you. Muslims do, and guess what? The homosexuals target the Christians and not Muslims. Why? Are they scared? I bet that’s the case.

Secondly, why do homosexuals claim they love people of the same sex? Let’s use men first for this example. Why do we have two gay men, but one sounds and acts like a women? I’m not talking transgender. I’m talking two gay men, but one starts to act as if he is a female, talks with a feminine voice, grows his hair long as a women, and/or tries walking almost like a women. Or take two lesbians- one acts like a man, dresses like a man, cuts her hair real short, tries talking with a masculine voice, etc. If you’re a man and want a women, get one! Or if you’re a women and want a man, get one! Don’t be a man who finds another man and then has them act like a women, or a women who finds a women and has her act like a man. To me, that’s no different than the vegans and vegetarians who claim to hate eating meat, yet start naming vegetable and plant based meals after meat products, like Toufurkey or making vegan cheese or soy bacon. Either eat meat or don’t; either claim to want to be gay and own it or don’t.

In Matthew Vines’ book, “God and the Gay Christian,” the author addressed six passages that he argues are the main barriers to homosexuals being embraced as Christians: Genesis 19:5; Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9; and 1 Timothy 1:10. His goal is to give a fresh view of old words, “to clarify…understanding of Scripture” (424). In Vines’ view, sexual orientation cannot be changed (489), but meaning of Scripture can. I believe that God’s Word doesn’t change, but sexual orientation can. How come Matthew claims sexual orientation cannot be changed, yet he ignores the fact that many homosexuals have come to know Jesus as Lord and then stopped living that life style, they either have married the opposite sex, or they admit that they will remain celibate and claim they no longer have feelings for the same sex. So, on that point, as with others, Matthew is clueless.

Vines neglected verses about homosexuality. He only discussed six passages summarized above. He side-stepped important verses like: 1 Cor. 6:9-10 that states homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven or 1 Cor. 7:2 (“But because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband”); Mark 10:6-9 (God made male and female in the beginning to join together as one flesh; “Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate”); and Hebrews 13:4 (“Let marriage be held in honor by all, and let the marriage bed be kept undefiled; for God will judge fornicators and adulterers”). Also, he did not address debatable, but challenging verses, about sexual immorality (Acts 15:29; 1 Cor. 5:1; 1 Cor. 10:8; 2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19; Eph. 5:3; Col. 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3-5; and Rev. 21:8). Even liberal Christians acknowledge that sexual immorality includes homosexual pederasty, which means, “sexual activity involving a man and a boy.”

Let’s go over all the verses Matthew uses and start with Genesis 19:5: “And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”

Matthew claims that this verse in Genesis is the start of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and he claims that many people claim that God destroyed these cities for the reason of them being homosexuals. He claims this is false. Now, as a Bible believing Christian I agree with Matthew on this point, the cities were not destroyed for the reason of homosexuality. The Bible says pride is the first reason why the cities were destroyed by God.

“Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.” (Ezekiel 16:49, 50 KJV)

Now, I agree with this passage and want to say this: when homosexuals use this verse to say Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for these other reasons, they don’t tell the whole story. Here is what they don’t tell people, and I believe they purposely ignore all the things I am going to say, the first word in the Ezekiel passage is pride. That’s the first and foremost reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Homosexuals are full of pride and the Bible condemns pride and says that pride is the sin of the devil. All over the United States we have gay pride parades, homosexuals claiming gay pride, bumper stickers stating gay pride, etc. There’s a reason why the homosexuals don’t mention these things. It’s because they know what the Bible teaches and if they mention these things, then they know they will be held accountable and really cannot refute them or change them to say what they want.

Now, let’s look at some verses that mention pride.
Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”

Proverbs 11:2 “When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.”

Mark 7:21-23 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”

1st Timothy 3:6 “Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”

1st John 2:16 “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.”

Now the word pride appears in the KJV of the Bible 49 times, and almost every use of Pride is equated with evil in some way. The few times it is not are when it talks about a sea creature in the book of Job and when it speaks of Israel. If Matthew and Justin Lee were really truly honest and want the truth, they would address these issues. It is no real surprise that they cannot or will not. These types of people accuse Christians that don’t agree with them of cherry-picking verses. I added verses that they never touched, so it seems they are the ones cherry-picking, not me.

Now onto these verses: Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13.

Lev 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

Lev 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

Lets start with Lev 18:22 first. Matthew claims there are other things in the O.T. that are abominations, like eating shellfish and having intercourse with a women while she is bleeding. Then, he uses Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

Matthew, along with many other people, most likely have either never read the Bible, or they read it and either understand what it says, and simply mislead people by claiming things they know are wrong, or they don’t understand it and that’s why they believe what they do. So to explain all of this better, let’s go back to the beginning: Genesis.

We we start from the beginning and we find only the human race – no Jew, and no Gentile existed. The laws and priesthood did not exist. Here is the start of the Jewish nation:
Gen 17:9 “And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.”

Gen 17:10 “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.”

Gen 17:11 “And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.”

Now, over in Exodus we find God saying:

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 19:6 “And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.”

This was never said about any other people group or nation. The Jews were set apart and are being used by God.
The point of all of this is to help explain the purposes of all of the laws that many seem to fail to understand. The whole purpose of the nation of Israel was to be a light to the people and nations around them. But if they lived and acted like everyone else, how could they be a light to the nations?
Part of all of this was having a high priest who could stand before God and hear from God, then the priest would speak to the people. But the priest is like everyone else, he is a sinful human being and needed to have his sins removed. So they would sacrifice animals, like bulls and sheep.

Now all these laws given to the Jews, like not eating shellfish or having intercourse with a women who is bleeding or sleeping with animals or homosexuality, were to help keep the Jews separate from all the nations that did these things, and to keep them clean and pure.

Matthew either has no clue what he is talking about, or he is purposely leaving out information so he can believe what he wants and convince people his lifestyle is ok in the eyes of God. God did not create this old system and just toss it away as if it was a mistake, and then have this new system. This is where many people go wrong. Here is what Jesus said to the religious leaders: John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of Me.”

When Jesus said this, the NT did not exist yet, and Jesus was talking about the OT. All these laws and rules and ways of doing things speak of Jesus. The passover is all about Jesus, and Jesus is our high priest who can never die. In the OT, the children of Israel and even the people in Egypt who were not Jews could be saved if they were under the blood of the lamb. But again, both Jews and Gentiles who were not under the blood would die. So after Jesus died on the cross, we need to be covered in His blood in order to be saved. Jesus is our Passover Lamb.

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”
John 6:54 “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Eph 2:16 “And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:”

In the OT, we also see Moses speaking to God in the burning bush, and God says to Moses, I AM. Jesus said that He is that I AM of the burning bush and called Himself God: John 8:58 “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, ‘Before Abraham was, I am.'”
Jesus also claimed to be the Manna that fell from Heaven, and many other references to the OT are about Jesus.

So now Jesus is our high priest that can never die, and He also was the passover lamb that was slain for us. We read in Heb 10:1, Paul says, “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.”

Heb 10:2-4 “For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”

Now that Jesus is here, we no longer live by the OT laws. The 10 commandments are still in effect and we still live by them. We don’t have the list of ten and follow them that way, but Jesus said this:

Matthew 22:36-40 “Master, which is the great commandment in the law. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Now, I can put up a list of the ten commandments and sit here and say, I did not lie today, I did not murder today, I did not steal today, etc.
Or I can do as Jesus said and love God and love my neighbor, and then I won’t want to do all the rest of the stuff. If I love God, I won’t lie, or kill, etc. If I love my neighbor, I won’t covet his stuff, his wife, or anything else.

When Matthew mentions the two verses in Leviticus, he purposely left out this verse, (Lev 18:27) “Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind, it is an abomination.” He also left these other two verses out:

Lev 18:24-25 “Defile not yourselves in any of these things: for in all of these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: The land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.”

If you back up a few verses you will find the verses on Homosexuality, so it seems by leaving these verses out, Matthew is lying by omission and by being deceitful.

Matthew uses Romans 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” Matthew should have also added these verses, yet no surprise he left them out.

Rom 10:5-6 “For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)”

Paul declares Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes. The law cannot make a person righteous before God, nor can it give a person a righteous standing before God. For if the law could give a man a righteous standing before God, then it was not necessary for Christ to die. Jesus, in the garden, prayed, “Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me.” If what is possible? If salvation for man is possible by any other means, if man can be saved by the law, if man can be saved by his own efforts, by his good works, if a man can be saved by sincerity, then, God, let this cup pass from Me. Let the cross pass.

The law ended as I said in the sense that we don’t follow a list of rules, but we still follow the laws in the sense that we do as Jesus said, and that’s love God and love our neighbor.

One purpose of the law was do works. In other words, it was a works based system. Now, we are under grace and live by faith.

Rom 3:20-31 “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Wherefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”

Now while we are under grace and not the law, that does not mean we can simply do what we want and live however we want and sin all we want, as some feel thats how it works. Here is what Scripture says about that:

Romans 6:
1″What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Rom 8:3 “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

Rom 9:31-32 “But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;”

Gal 2:16 “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Gal 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Gal 3:24 “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

Heb 7:11-12 “If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.”

So, all the verses that speak of homosexuality in the OT did not just vanish and cease to exist. We see in the N.T. that homosexual acts are still said to be an abomination and wrong in the sight of God. No matter how much a gay person wants that to be false, it simply is not and cannot be supported by the scripture.

Are Mormons Christians?

Latter Day Saints, also known as LDS, desperately want to be known as Bible-believing Christians. LDS will tell you that they believe the same gospel as Christians do, and they get highly offended if you tell them they have a different gospel and are not Bible-believing Christians. Sadly, more and more Bible-believing Christians are believing the LDS are in fact Bible-believing Christians just like us. It’s getting to the point that Christians are joining hands with LDS and allowing them to work with them in sharing the gospel of Jesus with non-believers.

Well, here are plenty of quotes from LDS leaders and prophets sharing exactly what they think of the Bible and Christians.  Read them and then tell me, do you honestly believe they are still Bible-believing Christians? And if you do, can you support it from the Bible?  I will break these quotes down into different subjects to make this a little easier to understand.  

What LDS prophets and presidents have said about Christians:
Read 1 Nephi 14:10 “behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.”

Brigham Young: “with a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called christian world” (Journal of discourses 8:199).

3rd president John Taylor (Brigham young quotes Mr Taylor) “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth” (J.O.D 6:176).

 Heber C. Kimball “Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (J.O.D 5:89).

Now, let’s think about what these quotes all just said.  LDS want to be known as and called Bible-believing Christians, but a few original LDS prophets and presidents have all clearly stated what they think of Christians, so why would LDS want to be known as Christians?   If these prophets were to come back from the grave and were alive today, then they would not even recognize the LDS church today.

The LDS prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, stated that LDS do not believe in the same Jesus as we Bible-believing Christians do.


In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President [Gordon B.] Hinckley spoke of those outside the [LDS] Church who say Latter-day Saints “do not believe in the traditional Christ.   No, I don’t.   The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.   For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.” (Church News, June 20, 1998, 7)

“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, Ensign, May 1977, p.26 ).

If the prophet claims that he does not believe in the same Jesus as we Bible-believing Christians do, then how can LDS claim to believe that the LDS prophet?  The LDS prophet is the only person who speaks for God in the LSD church, and he says we do not have the same gospel, so why do the LDS claim to believe in the same Jesus as we do?

A tract published by the LDS Church in 1973 says this:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept Him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that His blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (What the Mormons Think of Christ, 22)


10th  LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that “man may commit certain grievous sins–according to his light and knowledge–that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone–so far as in his power lies–for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail…. Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that men may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:134, 135).

LDS at one time taught the blood of Christ cannot cleanse us or save us.  As a Bible-believing Christain, do you agree with that?  If so, we need to talk.  If not, then how can LDS claim to be Christians?

Sadly, many Christians no longer believe the Bible as the Word of God.  If you claim to be a Christian and dont believe the Bible, then I question your salvation.  But that aside, if you believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and you feel LDS are Christians, then read these quotes.


Article eight of the LDS Articles of Faith reads, “We believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly …”

Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS Church, declared, “Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 327).

According to the Book of Mormon, only fools believe the Bible is a sufficient spiritual guide.

 2 Nephi 29:6 states, “Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible.”

Probably one of the most vocal LDS critics of the Bible was Apostle Orson Pratt. He claimed, “… who in his right mind could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?” (Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, pg. 47.)

The Book of Mormon states that “when it [i.e., the Bible] proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord” (1 Ne. 13:24), but “after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, . . . many plain and precious things [are] taken away from the book” (1 Ne. 13:28).

“The words contained in this Bible are merely a history of what is gone by; it was never given to guide the servant of God in the course he should pursue, any more than the words and commandments of God, given to a generation under one set of circumstances, would serve for another generation under another set of circumstances. There must be something to suggest or to draw forth the command to answer the circumstance under which we are placed at the time” (Apostle Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854, Journal of Discourses 2:75).

“…who in his right mind, could for one moment, believe the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.47.)

“As all informed persons know, the various versions of the Bible do not accurately record or perfectly preserve the words, thoughts, and intents of the original inspired authors” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.383).

Bible-believing Christians teach and believe that God the Father is eternal, not created, nor did He just come to be, yet LDS teach otherwise.

Milton Hunter from the council of the seventy, gospel through the ages pg 104: “Mormon prophets have CONTINUOSLY taught the sublime truth that God the eternal father was once a mortal man.”

 President Joseph.feilding.Smith, in the improvement era, vol 18 pg 81;
The PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH, teachings, pg 345-346;
Apostle James Talmage, Articles of Faith, pg 430;
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer
Presdint lorenzo snow, gospel through the ages, pg 104
Apostle Orson Hyde, Quorum of the twelve; all taught and believed God was once a man.

Galatians 1:8-9 says,  “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

According to the Bible, if anyone teaches another gospel, they will be eternally damned.  Mormons teach another gospel.  People who claim to be Christians, but believe Mormons are also Christians, have and are teaching another gospel.

Abortion vs Murder?

Abortion vs Murder?

I read this article on the news page.

Here is what I want people to think about and post your thoughts. Why is it when we read about these type of things, we get outraged and think this person is evil?  Yet if this same women went to have a partial Birth abortion, Most people would think nothing of it.

Sadly it’s still murder and the Baby will be born part way and then brutally murdered. Yet if a Doctor does this and calls it an abortion, then it’s ok and called women’s right to choose. So think about that.

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/police-utah-mom-admitted-to-killing-her-6-babies

Police: Utah mom admitted to killing her 6 babies

Authorities investigate a crime scene at a house in Pleasant Grove, Utah, Sunday, April 13, 2014.

PROVO, Utah (AP) — Authorities say a Utah woman accused of killing six babies that she gave birth to over 10 years told investigators that she either strangled or suffocated the children and then put them inside boxes in her garage.

According to a probable cause statement released by police Monday, Megan Huntsman said that between 1996 and 2006, she gave birth to at least seven babies at her home and that all but one of them were born alive.
Huntsman, 39, said she killed them immediately after they were born, and put their bodies inside the boxes. The statement said each baby was wrapped in either a towel or a shirt, and placed in a plastic bag.
Huntsman is being held on $6 million bail — $1 million for each baby she’s accused of killing. It wasn’t immediately clear if she had an attorney.

 

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Huntsman was arrested Sunday on six counts of murder after police found the infants’ tiny bodies. A seventh baby found appears to have been stillborn, Utah County Attorney Jeffrey Buhman said.
Formal charges have not yet been filed against Huntsman and no other arrests have been made but Buhman said the investigation remains open.
Investigators were trying to determine if the seven babies had the same father or multiple fathers, Buhman said.

This photo provided by the Utah County jail shows Megan Huntsman, who was booked into the Utah County jail on suspicion of killing six of her newborn children over the past decade. Seven dead babies were found in a garage at a Pleasant Grove home where Huntsman lived up until 2011.AP: Utah County Jail

This photo provided by the Utah County jail shows Megan Huntsman, who was booked into the Utah County jail on suspicion of killing six of her newborn children over the past decade.

The gruesome case has raised a series of questions about how the killings occurred despite Huntsman carrying out what neighbors said seemed like a normal existence. Police declined to comment on a motive and on what Huntsman said during an interview with investigators.
Her estranged husband found the first infant’s body while cleaning out the garage after recently getting out of prison. Authorities do not believe he was aware of the killings and he isn’t a person of interest at this time.
Police Capt. Michael Roberts said officers responded to a call from him Saturday about a dead infant, and then they found the six other bodies.
Family and neighbors identified the estranged husband as Darren West, who has been in prison on drug-related charges.
Roberts said police believe West and Huntsman were together when the babies were born.
“We don’t believe he had any knowledge of the situation,” Roberts told The Associated Press
Asked how West could not have known about the situation, Roberts replied, “That’s the million-dollar question. Amazing.”
The babies’ bodies were sent to the Utah medical examiner’s office for tests, including one to determine the cause of death. DNA samples taken from the suspect and her husband will determine definitively whether the two are the parents, as investigators believe.
Huntsman also has three daughters — one teenager and two young adults — who lived at the house.
Neighbors in the middle-class neighborhood of mostly older homes 35 miles south of Salt Lake City say they were shocked by the accusations and perplexed that the woman’s older children still living in the home didn’t know their mother was pregnant or notice anything suspicious.
Late Sunday, West’s family issued a statement saying they were in a “state of shock and confusion.”
“We are mourning this tragic loss of life and we are trying to stay strong and help each other through this awful event,” the statement said before asking for privacy.
West pleaded guilty in federal court in 2005 to two counts of possessing chemicals intended to be used in manufacturing methamphetamine, court records show. In August 2006, he was sentenced to 9 years in prison, but appealed the term three times. He maintained his innocence and said he never had any intention to manufacture meth.
West’s sister Sarah Wright wrote to federal district court in 2006, saying West is a good father to his three daughters. She said he worked at an excavation company for 11 years and is an avid outdoorsman who likes to fish and camp.
“Darren is such an awesome dad,” she wrote.
Neighbors told the AP they were shocked and horrified by the accusations of what went on inside the home. None of them even knew Huntsman was pregnant in recent years.
The family members seemed like nice people and good neighbors, said Aaron and Kathie Hawker, who lives next door.
Huntsman moved out several years ago, leaving her three daughters to live alone, the Hawkers said. They weren’t sure where Huntsman has since been living.
Years ago, Huntsman baby-sat the Hawker grandchildren and they were friendly with each other.
“It makes us so sad, we want to cry,” Kathie Hawker said. “We enjoyed having them as a neighbor. This has just blown us away.”
Aaron Hawker said he talked with West on Saturday morning. He told Hawker he was cleaning out the mess in the garage.
“Two hours later, suddenly we had all these policemen here,” Aaron Hawker said.
Fred Newman, a neighbor whose cousin is the husband’s mother, said he’s perplexed how the three oldest daughters living there didn’t know about what police say was going on. He said the girls didn’t always park their cars in the garage, but did sometimes in the cold winter months.
He said he has used his snow-blower to clean off the driveway of the home and the young women would thank him.
The girls were normal youngsters, coming and going often, neighbor Vickie Nelson said.
“It’s shocking and kind of morbid and strange,” Nelson said as he looked across the street at the garage from her from lawn.
Roberts said the case has been “emotionally draining” and upsetting to investigators. He was at the home when the bodies were discovered.
“My personal reaction? Just shocked. Couldn’t believe it. The other officers felt the same,” the 19-year police veteran said.
“They got more and more shocked each box they opened,” Roberts said.
___
Associated Press writer Michelle Price in Salt Lake City, Martin Griffith in Reno, Nev., and Annie Knox in Salt Lake City contributed to this report.

Catholic priests who Molest?

Catholic priests who Molest?

Here is another thing to think about.

The issue of Catholic priests molesting young children is a huge problem.  For some strange reason, these offenders keep getting moved onto new churches to just keep doing what they do, hurting young children.

It seems to me there are priests or people in the church that know about these offenders and are doing nothing about it and not telling anyone.   I was thinking about this issue and happened to say to a friend who is both a pastor and a police chaplain, “If I went to a catholic church and said to the priest, ‘I would like to confess my sins,’ and I go sit in one of the booths, they are not allowed by law to tell anyone what I said.  So after I get in, what would happen if I said, ‘Father, I want to confess my sins?’ And he says, ‘What is it you would like to confess?’ And I say, ‘The fact that I am about to shoot and kill you, and then start killing other priests who molest these little children.'”

My pastor friend said that the priest would have a mandate by law to call the cops and turn me in for threatening to kill the priests.  So I said, “Let me get this straight.  They have a mandate by law to call the cops on me for saying I wanted to kill them, but they don’t have a mandate by law to call the cops on fellow priests for molesting little children.”  The pastor said that pretty much sums it up.

To me, this is the height of hypocrisy.  If it is your life on the line, you cry like a little girl and run and call the cops.  Yet, when you’re hurting young children, you don’t want anyone to know what your doing, so you cover it up and keep it quiet.  Why you priests who are not molesting kids allow others to do this and you cover for them, I don’t understand.  Wow, I would hate to be in your shoes when you stand before God.