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Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

Here is a letter I sent to one of the Mormons I have been keeping in touch with. Its close to two weeks and I have not heard back from him, I kind of suspect he will not reply back. I asked him a question about the bible and he replied back, so this was my reply to him and nothing back yet. But if he replies I will let you know.

This was my first question to Him.
Hello, How is it going?
I have two questions, one I have been meaning to ask any Mormon, but have never gotten around to asking any.
Do Mormons believe in the rapture of the church? I have never seen anything on this issue, and never seen or heard anyone ever speak about it, so if you do, it really is a new one to me.

My next question is about A of F 8.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

If LDS teach that the word of God is not really translated correctly, then can you give me a list of verses that you or the LDS church feel are not translated correctly? and give the correct translation. I ask because as you know, I am reading the KJV of the Bible, but it was printed from the LDS church and has all the LDS foot notes and maps in the back. I have other non-LDS KJ bibles and they are all the same. So if any verses are not correct, and there is no indication or nothing stating the LDS K J bible says, these verses are translated incorrectly, and giving any “corrected” verses, then it leads me to believe A of F 8 is wrong. And from all the LDS books, and articles and any teachings I have heard from sitting in on LDS services or videos I have seen, any time the Bible is ever quoted from, it is the KJ version and never is it stated, that the verse was translated incorrectly and here is the correct translation. Also here is something

B.YOUNG said,
I ask you, brother B, how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? BY replies with. “Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?” I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man’s interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from there literal, plain, simple meaning. In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237

B, Young never gave any reason to believe the Bible was translated incorrectly. I have asked this same question before to other Mormons, Non have been able to answer me. If you could, that would be great, if you cannot, maybe, its because the Bible is correct, and not wrong. Thanks. Rick
Now this was the reply back from the Mormons.

Yes we do believe in the rapture. It talks about it in the Book of revelations which as you know is in the Bible and we believe in that so yeah.

Okay as for the Bible verses. There is something that we have called the Joseph smith translation of the Bible. Where we believe that Joseph received revelation to translate the Bible. We have a list of some the changes he made. Some of them are in the footnotes of the KJV Bible that our church has and also we have a section of Korean of his translations. These can be found in our gospel library app under scriptures. Or I believe in the back of the pearl of great price. Or you can find it on

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). Find messages of Christ to uplift your soul and invite the Spirit.
This was my reply to him, and since this was sent, I have not heard back from them as of yet.

Hello, Thanks for your reply’s. Like I said, I never heard or read any mention of the rapture from LDS sources, so I never honestly knew where you guys stood.
Now on the Issue of the J.S.T of the Bible, I do not agree with you on this and fully believe you have been mis-informed and are wrong.
First of all, I believe I showed you my copy of the J.S.T as I do own a copy. Yes the LDS church uses bits and pieces of the J.S.T but they do not use it fully or trust it fully. I had to by my copy over the Internet as at the time I bought it, the local LDS book store did not sell it and said they dont as the church does not own the full rights to the Book.

First off, lets start with JS and HIS Bible. If you read the Articles of Faith (A of F) number 8, it says,
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
First problem is, The LDS do not fully trust the Bible as being both accurate or the Word of God. Now we read in the Doctrine and Covenants (D and C) Chapter 71 in the heading above that chapter.
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, December 1, 1831. HC 1: 238–239. The Prophet had continued to translate the Bible with Sidney Rigdon as his scribe until this revelation was received, at which time it was temporarily laid aside so as to enable them to fulfill the instruction given herein. The brethren were to go forth to preach in order to allay the unfriendly feelings that had developed against the Church as a result of the publication of some newspaper articles by Ezra Booth, who had apostatized.
Then we read in D and C chapter 73
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, at Hiram, Ohio, January 10, 1832. HC 1: 241–242. Since the early part of the preceding December, the Prophet and Sidney had been engaged in preaching, and by this means much was accomplished in diminishing the unfavorable feelings that had arisen against the Church (see heading to Section 71).
1–2, Elders are to continue to preach; 3–6, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are to continue to translate the Bible until it is finished.

1 For verily, thus saith the Lord, it is expedient in me that they should continue preaching the gospel, and in exhortation to the churches in the regions round about, until conference;

2 And then, behold, it shall be made known unto them, by the voice of the conference, their several missions.

3 Now, verily I say unto you my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, saith the Lord, it is expedient to translate again;

4 And, inasmuch as it is practicable, to preach in the regions round about until conference; and after that it is expedient to continue the work of translation until it be finished.

5 And let this be a pattern unto the elders until further knowledge, even as it is written.

6 Now I give no more unto you at this time. Gird up your loins and be sober. Even so. Amen.
Please remember, both while reading what I write now and when and if you ever talk to the LDS about this, the Heading above the Chapter 73 says, They were to finish the translation. This is very important for the reason of, many LDS have told me and do teach, that JS never finished the Translation. You can go to the LDS fair boards and either talk about the JST and you will have LDS tell you JS never finished or you can look up under my user name (rick b)fairlds and read all of my talks as they arcive everything. The link provide will take you to all of my posts, you can read over the pages and look up the talks on the JST and after you click on them you can read what everyone else said. I talked with LDS on the FairLDS board who told me JS never finished his work of translation.

This is a very serious problem, which I will cover. Lets look at D and C 76:15
15 For while we were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us
And D and C 93:53
53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.
Now if you see TV, or book or web ad’s for the LDS offering a BoM or even a Bible, they NEVER offer you a JST of the Bible. And when you speak with them and they quote from the Bible, you will notice they almost never quote from the JST of the Bible. I would really have to Ask and I guess I am going to ask, If JS really is a prophet of God, The lds is the True Church and God really did tell JS to translate the Bible, Why do the LDS not use it or pass it out?

I will give what I believe are some reasons why. First, JS is nothing more than a false prophet who came as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But the LDS don’t believe this, so hear are some reasons I have heard given by them over the years. When JS was killed in the jail, Brigham Young took over as the next president of the LDS church. Depending on who you talk to or believe for that matter, there was a split in the Church, we had the LDS who followed BY, and the RLDS who followed Joseph Smith’s son.

The rlds at the time believed Joseph Smiths son was ment to be the next President of the LDS Church, not BY. Joseph’s Wife, Lucy, followed her son. She owned the copy of the JST of the Bible. BY wanted it, but lucy would not give it up. So finally BY dismissed it as flawed. Now the LDS claim the RLDS own the rights to the book.

I have to ask these questions, If the LDS really believe the Church fell into a total apostasy, and the Bible is not accurate, and God clearly told JS to translate the Bible again, As was clearly laid out, why would God allow one group to own the copy rights on His word and therefore the Church that WAS supposed to have it and use it, see it basically fall into a some what corrupted state again?

I happen to own a copy of the JST of the Bible, and when you read in the preface of the JST of the Bible, it states, ( “Completion” Possibly not final).

Now as far as manuscripts go and there being different ones, I fell in a little more general sense, I believe some translations are created simply to make money. Is that wrong? Yes I believe marketing the gospel is wrong. But some translations were created because not everyone has the time to learn Greek, Hebrew, Latin or other languages. But to be fair, JS did teach the German translation was more accurate, So why don’t the LDS use the German translation instead of the KJV?

Briefly take the KJV of the Bible, honestly some people have a hard time reading the old KJV, And all of the Thee’s and Thou’s Etc. So they made things like the NKJV. But for the LDS who might want to argue that these are not valid or Good, I would ask this, Why do the LDS read the NKJV, or the NiV, or other translations? If you think they Don’t, go to the fairlds board and ask the LDS over there, they have mentioned using them many times.

Now onto the JST, a lds member I was speaking to on a web board named Grorc said… The LDS church publishes and uses the JST translation of the Bible. Almost every member has one. I don’t understand your statement to the contrary.

The reason I said what I did is this: as a general statement, the LDS members do not use the JST. As to the LDS church publishing the JST, Unless things have changed over the years, The RLDS publish the JST and Not the LDS Church. Now here are some things that I find to be problems, either with the JST or the LDS Church’s use and lack of use of it, or how they word things about it. Example, some LDS feel it was a completed finished piece of work, others do not. If the LDS cannot agree as to the JST being finished or not, how can I trust it or the LDS church to get their facts correct in other areas. Also LDS members do not Accept the RLDS church as being an LDS Church. They feel the RLDS Church are nothing more than an Apostate Church. If the LDS do not Accept the RLDS Church and do view them as being Apostate or wrong in many areas, why would God tell JS to “Correct” the Bible, only to allow it to be “re-corrupted” By going to any other Church than the true Church?

So the Question is this, If JS was a “True Prophet” Of God and God told JS to Correct, alter or Fix the JS bible in any way, Why is BY downplaying it by not using it, making mention of it and even saying the Bible is Good enough as is? B.YOUNG said,
I ask you, brother B, how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? BY replies with. “Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?” I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man’s interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from there literal, plain, simple meaning. In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237

Another question would be, if the Bible is not Correct in what it teaches and cannot fully be trusted to the Point where JS needed to “Correct” or “Re-translate” The Bible, Why does Jesus and the apostles Quote from it? Granted only the Old Testament was around when they Quoted from it, But JS Did “Correct” Portions of the OT. So why did God wait almost 2,000 years for JS to be born to correct the error, when Jesus or the Disciples could have corrected it?

Sadly not every LDS owns a copy or uses it. I have NEVER in my life meet one LDS missionary who has come to my house and brought a JST with them and use only that in place of the “Corrupted” KJV. And the TV ads only offer the KJV, Not the JST. I spent two weeks in SLC taking the entire temple tour and walking the Streets talking to people, toured the book store, looked over the Books and Bibles and BoM laying around at tables throughout the temple area for people to pick up and read, and guess what? Not once did I ever see a JST of the Bible lying around.

About 2 years ago I purposely went through Official LDS books I own, Every time I came across a Scripture that an LDS prophet, President or even Just the average Joe Mormon when they quoted or used a scripture, I looked to see whether it was the “Corrupted” and untrustworthy KJV, Or whether it was the Corrected JST. Guess what? For almost every 10 scriptures I found, maybe one was the JST, The rest were KJV. Why?

I will do this again when I get time and Document every source right down to the page number, so people can see for themselves, That the LDS tend to use the KJV or the Inspired version. So much for God Commanding JS to “Correct” a flawed Bible.

Here is something I find funny. LDS claim we must perform “Works” To help in our salvation. I claim Grace alone not works, So in the book Evidences and Reconciliations, pg 353-354 we read
It is not really correct to say that the prophet translated the Bible. Rather, he corrected errors in the Bible, and under revelation added long statements.
So either the LDS author is correct and JS “corrected” the Bible, or the Author is wrong and he must have learned this from the LDS he sits under. Also as an LDS he is simply not able to just write a book and produce it with out first having it examined. Now I point this out for this reason, in the KJV of the Bible, we read in Romans 3:28
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Now we read in the JST in Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ALONE without the deeds of the law.
We read in the JST of Romans, only one word was added to that passage to supposedly correct it, the word ALONE. Houston, we have a problem. Either we are saved by grace alone, or we are saved by grace, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. Yet God supposedly told JS to correct the Bible.

Another problem we have is this, JS claims that the book of Malachi is “correct” yet the angel Moroni quotes it differently. Joseph Smith history 1:36-39. So is the Prophet correct, or the Angel who told JS about the golden plates correct?

Another problem we read is this, As I quoted in part one, from the D and C, God Supposedly told JS and Sidney Rigdon to complete the JST of the Bible. But we read in the Preface to the JST it is possibly not complete. LDS over on the Fairlds board will tell you it is not complete. Where are the LDS that feel it is not complete getting there information? We read in the 1993-94 Church Almanac pg 339 under July 2 The prophet Joseph Smith finished the translation of the Bible

Then in the 2003 Church Almanac 536 again under July 2, it states JS finished the New Testament.
But sadly, the Prophet and President Joseph F. Smith feels it was not finished.
The reason that it has not been published by the Church is due to the fact that this revision was not completed…due to persecution and mobbing this opportunity never came, so that the manuscript was left with only a partial version.
Then we read in the JST pg 11
Changes made at some points in the inspired version were not followed consistently…. Some passages were corrected, but the parallel references were not corrected….Mormon authors Sperry and Van Wagoner have pointed out that the Psalms are evidence of the incompleteness of the translation.
We read in Times and Seasons Vol VI pg 802 that the JST was completed.

Why is it if the JST is not really complete, have any of the so called “prophets of god” Corrected it. If it really is fully and truly corrected, why not fully use, promote and endorse it? If as these people and sources are correct, and the JST of the Bible is not complete, then God must be a failure, because not only did he commanded JS to finish the job, but this denies the teaching of 1 Nephi 3:7
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
Kind of strange, that the BoM claims God will not command you to do something unless He makes it possible for you to do it. But then Commands JS to COMPLETE the JST of the Bible, then allows JS to fail. Even Bruce M claims in the book Mormon Doctrine pg.383 claims the JST is not complete.
Now lets cover some problems I find in the JST of the Bible, then ask some questions.

First problem I find is this, why is it JS simply copied some verses word for word and claimed he correct these verse, when in fact their is not a single change made? below are some examples.
Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

Exd 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

Exd 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, [even] to Horeb.

Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest’s that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

Lev 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation [for] an heave offering unto the LORD, [and] it shall be the priest’s that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.

Lev 7:32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings.
I could go on with a ton more verses, But it even states in the JST on Page 11, Psalms 1-11 and 18-32 are exactly word for word as the KJV? How is this Correct or inspired as JS claims?

Then their are some verses in the JST where their is only one single letter added or on single word changed, and it still works out to saying the same exact thing. Examples are below. the word(s) in the JST that differ from the KJV will be put in ().
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down (out of ) heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, (a) hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Notice in the verse 21:17 the word (AN) has the single letter (N) dropped. this really makes no change to the word. anyone simply could argue in favor of either version that the single letter added or removed is nothing more than a typo.

Here is another verse that I simply do not see how it could be “corrected” or “inspired”
1Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

1Timothy 3:8 Likewise the deacons must [be] grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.
Notice that the only change between the verses are simply the movement of the word (MUST). How is this a correction? The JST is so full of stuff like this it is not even funny.

Then we read in KJV of the Book of Revelation 22:18-19
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Now my point on these verses is this, JS did not touch these verses, so he must have felt they were translated correctly, or God must have felt they were fine. Anyway, If these verses are correct to the point they were not changed in anyway, then this poses a problem, even if LDS feel these verses only apply to the Book of Revelation and no other book, then JS did make changes to the book of Revelation. So why would God put these verses in the Book, only to later have JS turn around and “correct” the Book.

If God is really all knowing, and if He is not the author of confusion, it would stand to reason, He would have foreseen the changes that needed to be made to the book of revelation, so why would God put these two verses in the book in the first place?

Then there are 9 books JS felt were correct and never changed, both in the Old and New testaments.
If we add to that, all the verses that were not changed, all the verses that were altered, but those mean nothing in the sense of, one single letter was added or removed like with the example of (A) verses (AN), then the more serious changes that were made are really so few, it would stand to reason that the majority of the Bible is accurate. And seeing as how the LDS feel it is not Accurate, who is correct. The Bible or JS?

Here are a few Examples of what I mean by, some books have very few to almost no changes.
The Book of 2 Corinthians is 13 Chapters long, JS only changed 9 chapters. but out of those 9 chapters 6 of those Chapters only have 1-2 verses changed, and 2 more chapters have 3 verses changed.

Then in 1st Thessalonians is 5 Chapters. JS only changed 4 chapters, but 2 chapters only have 1 verse changed, 2 Chapters have 2 verses changed, and 1 Chapter has 3 verses changed.

The one page book of Philemon has only one verse changed. And the same with the book of Jude, only one verse changed. My point on this is simply this, These changes are major enough, that JS altered the Word of God, yet most Changes are minor enough that you really have to ask, how can you say, these are corrections?

Now here are some more questions.

Brigham Young said
In the Bible are the words of life and salvation . We are believers in the Bible…its precepts, doctrine, and prophecy…We take this book, the Bible…for our guide, for our rule of action; we take it as the foundation of our faith.
Discourses of BY, PG 124-125.

I think it is really confusing for BY to say what he did, Knowing that the Bible was “Corrected” by JS from a revelation of God.

Then again, BY on pg 126, goes onto say,
With us the Bible is the first book, then the book of mormon comes next.
Then many years later we read,
The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints accepts the Holy Bible as the foremost of her standard works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as her written guides in faith and Doctrine. (A of F , Talmage p.236)

Now, According to A of F number 8, the Bible not translated correctly. If this is true, then can you tell me what part is NOT TRANSLATED Correctly?

How do you come to the conclusion you did, if you even answered the question?

Can you give me a list of ten inaccurate translations?

Can you list any errors that are now in the Bible? if so, how did you come to that conclusion?

If God really did tell JS to “correct error” in the Bible, why are you still using a corrupt version?

According to D and C 124:89
89 If he will do my will let him from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph, and with his interest support the cause of the poor, and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth.
God says, the JST is His Holy Word. so why all the problems that are both found in the JST and the fact that BY and others (talmage), For one, seem to teach the Bible is Superior, why?

Now here are some things that the Bible teaches.
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
If the Bible, Gods Holy Word, says this stuff about it, and it is incorrect, then first off, how can I trust anyone, if God allows His word to be corrupted? Then if it really is Gods word, and it is useful for correcting Error, and I cannot trust it, then how can I trust JS. If he really heard from God, to correct error, but had much error himself, both in the JST and the BoM, with the 4,000 plus changes, Who can I trust? Rick b

Restaurant that open carry’s guns.

I saw an article in the news about a restaurant.  It said the staff openly carried guns.  They are located in Ogden, Utah.  I told my wife that since we will be in Utah, we will stop in.  The restaurant is called Sea Bears.  They are on Facebook and you can google them.  Their address is:  Union Station, 2501 Wall Ave, Ogden, Utah.  They are a fish house; the staff wear kilts and play Celtic music.   My wife and I spoke with the owners wife.  We are pro-gun and fully support them.  The food rocks, and they are very friendly.  Its a family-owned restaurant.  Everyone who openly carries has their permit to carry and are legal age to carry.  They are very pro-second amendment.  Sadly, many people are crying over this.  As far as they are concerned, it is only about rights to carry, not to flaunt their guns.  Please support this restaurant if you happen to be in the area.  If not and you’re on Facebook, please write and state that you support them.   Being a chef, I care about the little guy in the restaurant business, but I also care about my gun rights.  I think I slightly freaked out the owner’s wife, as I pulled my .45 and said, “Yes, I fully support this place and our rights to carry.”  Thanks for all your hard work and good food, Sea bear clan!
 Rick and Shelli Beaudin

LDS prophets cannot agree

JS claims over in D and C 135:3-4 he has done more except Jesus has, well if this is the case why is it that the apostles like Paul, John, Peter and others have books of the Bible named after them and not Joseph? We read in the book of revelation that the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the gates of heaven but no where are any LDS apostles or prophets mentioned, strange how not even the super prophet JS is not mentioned if he ranks second to Jesus?

Now we read J Smith saying in the book History of the Church vol 4, pg 461. “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by it’s precepts, than any other book.”

Then over in the book, Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on pg 71 we read, ” Take away the book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? we have none.”

Now lets look at what the prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith said. Notice Joseph Smith was the first “prophet” Joseph F Smith was the 10th “prophet/president” of the Church. So as not to confuse with the close names.

We read in the book,

Doctrines of Salvation vol 3, pg 198-199 J.F.S. teaches, ” In my judgment their is no book on earth yet come to man as important as the book known as the Doctrine and Covenants, with all due respect to the Book of Mormon, and the Bible, and the pearl of great price, which we say are our standards in Doctrine. The book of Doctrine and Covenants to us stands in a peculiar position above them all.

I am going to tell you why. When I say that, do not for a moment think I do not value the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price, just as much as any man that lives; I think I do. I do not know of anybody who has read them more, and I appreciate them; they are wonderful; they contain doctrine and revelation and commandments that we should heed; but the Bible is a history containing the doctrine and commandments given to the people anciently. that applies also to the Book of Mormon. It is the doctrine and history and commandments of the people who dwelt upon this continent anciently.

But this Doctrine and Covenants contains the word of God to those who dwell here now. It is our book. It belongs to the Latter Day Saints.

So we find here two prophets disagree on just how important the BoM really is?
Now lets add to this what Ezra Taft Benson taught. He taught the 14 fundamentals of following the brethren. This was the SECOND: The Living Prophet is More Vital to Us Than The Standard Works.

So now we have 3 people, all prophets teaching different things. This leads to another question, if D and C is over the book of Mormon, why do the Mormon missionary’s not pass that out? And if the Prophet is over all the 4 standard works, why bother passing them out at all? Why not pass out books of the prophets teachings?

Now lets move on to a sore subject in Mormonism that shows more contradictions. The issue of Plural Wives.

I would like to share my thoughts on this subject. I feel that it was a doctrine of man, by man and for man. Not from God and here is why I say this. In the Journal of Discourses number 5 pg 203 Heber C Kimbal said this and I quote extra for context that some seem to feel people leave out.

“Some quietly listen to those who speak against the lords servants, against his anointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that god has revealed. Such persons have a half dozen devils with them all the time. YOU MIGHT AS WELL DENY “MORMONISM,” AND TURN AWAY FROM IT, AS TO OPPOSE THE PLURALITY OF WIVES. Let the presidency of this church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned. Also we read in vol 3 pg 266, where B Young said and I quote, “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned. WOW B Young promises we will be damned if we stop this practice. I guess there will be many damned LDS, as the stopped doing this.

Let us add to this

D and C 132 1-3 2. Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter. So here we find it is “supposedly” of God. 3. Therefore ,prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; FOR ALL THOSE WHO HAVE THIS LAW REVEALED UNTO THEM MUST OBEY THE SAME. 4. for behold, I reveal unto you a new and everlasting covenant, then are ye damned;for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. I would like to point out some things here. First off in D and C 1:14 it says we must obey the lord, the apostles, and the prophets or we will be cut off.

Their, You read it and heard it, so this applies to you, not only to a select few as Mormons claim, otherwise God lied.
Also Since when is new and everlasting only 50 or so years. Everlasting means forever, without end. Again did God lie? It was reveled unto all who hear and read, yet all who hear and read reject this, by saying everlasting means a limited time and limited people. This defies logic.

Read verse 5-6. it is a LAW that you MUST obey. Verse 8 says, Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion. I’m sorry but everlasting only lasting about 50 years, and God said this is for all but Mormons claim it was only for some, is confusion.

Who gave this new and everlasting covenant? The lord did. The lord said for all who have this law revealed unto them MUST obey it. Well if you read D and C or just read what I wrote, you fall under all who have it reveled unto them. Now you must obey it. Not only are Mormons not following D and C 1:14 but the concept of on going revelation now shows it’s flaws. Ezra Taft Benson taught the prophet does not need to say thus saith the lord to give us scripture. But the lord was clear he gave us that scripture. But the counsel backed it up as I stated above.

Then Ezra Taft Benson also taught the prophet cannot lead the church astray. so which prophet is leading us astray? The prophets of old followed and taught it, but now deny it.

Hebrews 6:16 say it is impossible for God to lie, Titus 1:2 Enos 6, Ether 3:12 and D and C 62:6 all teach God cannot lie.

So did God lie? He states it is a new and everlasting covenant. Again since when is everlasting only 50 plus years. Also if God did not lie who did? Mormons teach that the plural wife teaching was for a select few men, God said it was for all that it was reveled unto. Again if you heard it, it was reveled unto you, why are you not obeying it?

Now lets look to the book of Mormon. In Jacob 1:15-19 and 2:21-25 it teaches David and Solomon did evil by having many wives. Then in Mosiah 11:2 it teaches many wives is a sin. Now here is a contradiction because in D and C 132:37-39 it says it was not a sin for David Solomon and others to have many wives. Now I thought God could not lie? But Gods word is both in the B.O.M and D and C. So either man wrote it and messed up or God lied.

If the BOM is the fullness of the Gospel why then does it not support D and C 132 About the topic of Plural wives forever.

Then Again if the BOM is the fullness why do we read in Mosiah 11:2and Ether 10:5 plural wives is a sin, this goes against D and C 132. Add to that Jacob 3:5, the Lamanites are called filthy yet at the same time they are more righteous in their actions because they don’t practice plural wives.

D and C 19:26 and 42:12 states both the Bible and BOM contain truth and are the word of God, yet they deny the teaching of plural wives as a good God ordained teaching.

Moroni 8:18 teach’s God is unchangble yet he changed his stance, saying plural wives is an abomation by allowing it to happen in D and C 132?. Now I know LDS will reply by saying Plural wives was practiced in the Bible. It was a sin even in the Bible, If God were to punish us with death every time we sinned there would only be plants and animals left on this planet. Now if you want to give your Bible scripture on plural wives please give a scripture(s) from the Bible as clear as D and C 132 Where God says here you go a gift of many wives or Hey you I commanded you to take wives and the more the better. It is not in there. Yes the people sinned and disobeyed the Lord by taking them but God never said this is what I want/commanded you to do.

Let me ask again. Who in Mormonism can we trust?

Now, Mormons claim they are christens also, Lets look at what the Prophets of old said about Christians and I quote:

“B Young: “With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world” (Journal of Discourses 8:199). I quote 3rd president John Taylor (Brigham Young quotes Mr. Taylor) “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell, the eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked onto the earth” (J.O.D 6:176). I quote Heber C. Kimball “Christians-those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about-some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth” (J.O.D 5:89).” then we can add the first vision by Joseph Smith. If God really did speak to him then he said all the Christian creeds are an abomtion in his sight.

If this is the case how can you say you are Christians. Along this lines I would like to ask also, if you are Christians then why do you try and convert Christians to the Mormon faith if we all are Christians?

OK, Now I will just post problems in general otherwise known as contradictions. But the problem with these is, either The Prophet Joseph Smith claims God told him or God himself said this stuff, Again, who in Mormonism can we trust?.

Over in D and C 7 it teaches John the apostle was to live and preach till the lord returns. Read 3 NEPHI 28:6-7 It teaches the apostle John, Who walked with Jesus, Was told he will never die. Then over in ETHER 12:17 3 more disciples were also told they would never see death. Then read D and C 7:1-8 Ok now if this stuff is true there could never have been a total apostasy of the church, Because there were people who were living that had the gospel truth.

1 NEPHI 1:8 It says ” I THOUGHT I SAW GOD” You either did see God or you did not, You cannot say I thought I saw God. Not only that but the Bible teaches no man can see God and live, Also over in D and C 84:19-22 Says if you do not have the priesthood you cannot see God and live. Here is another problem, When this guy said I thought I saw God, There is no mention of him having the priesthood. Also when Joseph Smith first had his vision and said he saw God, Then later said God came and baptized him he did not have the priesthood. So if Joseph Smith could see and talk with God then receive the priesthood, That means D and C 84 is wrong other wise the only other option is Joseph Smith lied. Either way someone lied.

Now here is the subject of Negros and them not being able to receive the same rights as white people according to the Prophet B Young and Bruce Mc. But even this has since changed and has been tried to be buried.

In the 1958 edition Mormon Doctrine ( I happen to own a copy), pg 477 says,

Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES can they hold this delegation of authority from the ALMIGHTY. The GOSPEL message of salvation is not carried AFFIRMATIVELY to them….Negroes are NOT EQUAL with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned.

So please explain how we go from UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to the change that it is ok in the newer versions of Mormon Doctrine? Also please explain this, B Young clearly states here in

JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES VOL 10 PG 110 (again I own these books) Shall I tell you THE LAW OF GOD in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of cain, the penalty, under the LAW OF GOD, is DEATH on the SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.

Again how can this be the law of God THAT WILL ALWAYS BE SO, YET IT IS NO LONGER SO?. Any thoughts on why the doctrine changed. In light of the fact that the PROPHET spoke this and claimed it was a LAW of God.

Ok, here is another doctrine that has caused many Mormons major embarrassment. it’s the Adam God Doctrine. In short, B Young taught Adam from the garden of Eden is our God and father. This is found in vol 1 of the journal of discourses. there is to much to post here. I am posting very little of what B Young said on this subject. But if any Mormon reads this and feels I am wrong please explain how and why. I Own the entire JoD and have read in context the entire Adam God teachings.

I quote in CONTEXT what B young TAUGHT. “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner. If you read this then I believe you fall under Inhabitant of the earth, B young said NOW HEAR IT.

this is his teaching.

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. pause. let me point out how can ADAM HELP MAKE THIS WORLD WHEN THE BIBLE TEACHES GOD CREATED IT FIRST WITH EVERYTHING GOOD TO GO, HE CREATED ADAM FROM THE DUST. Start up again, He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken– He is our FATHER and our GOD. and the only God with whom we have to do.

Notice what B young is about to say here,

Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, MUST HEAR IT, and will know it sooner or later. notice B Young claims we will hear it sooner or later, and every man must KNOW IT. you fall under every man, you heard it. . This is very important here, notice B Young claims “Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause. notice he said all who hear, you heard and he said they are doctrines. resume, before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their SALVATION or DAMNATION.


Now lets look at something else B Young said. In the book Discourses of BY pg 194 1925 edition also found in JOD vol 1 pg 237 a person ask’s BY a question.

I ask you, brother B, how I must believe the Bible, and how shall you and every other follower of the Lord Jesus Christ believe it? BY replies with. “Brother Mormon, how do you believe it?” I believe it just as it is. I do not believe in putting any man’s interpretation upon it, whatever, unless it should be directed by the Lord himself in some way. I do not believe we need interpreters and expounders of the Scriptures, to wrest them from there literal, plain, simple meaning.

Now according to BY, if he believes the Bible as it is, Then I believe we could apply that to other LDS teachings. When I said LDS redefine meanings, God said I am eternal, hell is everlasting and eternal. Yet when I point out God the father was not once man who progressed first because the Bible does not teach it, also God the father states I am eternal. Now according to LDS eternal Really means He had a beginning, yet the dictionary claims Eternal is without a beginning. You name it, we disagree because you guys when we take something at face value and point out the LDS teach… then all of a sudden the meaning is twisted to fit LDS definition so as to mean something different.

Now here is a nice little bit of things to think about.

3 Nephi 26:2-3 say 3:and He (Jesus) did expound all things from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory.

If Jesus taught ALL things why are we missing at least 12 major lds doctrine from the BOM. Also read over in

3 Nephi 26:6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people.

Now how can the BOM claim Jesus taught all things but yet not all things are written for us. The biggest problem I see is LDS teach the Bible is missing books and precious parts, well it would appear by these verses so is the BOM?

But over in D and C 18:4 and 20:8-9 it teaches all things are written in the BOM, so are they or not?. Then over in D and C 42:12 it teaches principles of Jesus gospel are in the Bible and BOM, so again if this is true, why are we missing major doctrines from it?. Then again on the topic of missing books from the Bible, what about 1 Nephi 1:15-16. it says a full account of the things made unto him, so did the Lord only show some things which make up the full account.

Ok over in 1 Nephi 13:26-27 it says the plain and precious things are missing. Can anyone tell me what these things are, and how can you prove they are the plain and precious things, not just any ol list you choose.

Alma 34:32-35 claims no second chance after death, IE no baptism for the dead. Yet Mormonism teaches baptism for the dead. But Mormonism also teaches God cannot change, so it appears he has changed.

2 Nephi 11:7 teaches if God did not exist there would have been no creation. Yet there were other Gods before God the father according to Mormonism, I would be willing to suspect they could have done it instead.

Mormonism teaches the Trinity is 3 separate Gods, Born Again Christians say 3 people who form ONE ETERNAL GOD. 2 Nephi 26:12 says Jesus is the Christ THE ETERNAL GOD. Not a God or one of the Gods. It teaches HE (Jesus) is God.

So who really can we trust and even if you said well we can trust so and so or his teachings, how can I really know for sure that their correct. If I follow mormon logic and “pray about this” and feel that it is correct, yet another LDS member prays about something totally different (contradictory) and they feel they are correct then we are back at square one again.

here is an example, in Doct of Sal vol 2 pg 1 of chapter 1 heading says SALVATION.
below that it says THE PLAN OF SALVATION.

Salvation should be a subject uppermost in the minds of all men. It is, without question the most important subject that could possibly be considered, and yet there are so few among the many who pay any attention whatever to this great and important theme, as it may be applied in their lives.

Joseph F Smith feels this is of major importance. If it is then how can we know what is correct and what is false if no one can seem to get things straight. If salvation is of major importance then how come the Bible teaches we must call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, no works needed, look at the jailer in Acts. Then no mention of all the works needed to be saved in the book of Mormon, yet Mormonism teaches we must obey all the laws to be saved.

read pg 9 of doc of salvation vol 2. Here J.F.S states what I said.

“what is eternal life? it is to have a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. no one receives eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is not. the Lord says; verily verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. everlasting life in this passage is the same as eternal life”.

In that section there J.F.S. states eternal life is the same as exaltation and no works expect belief are mentioned. But in an earlier post from the same book he stated not half the LDS will be saved. If belief as he states is all that is needed then you could be lead to believe LDS don’t believe.

Now here is two more problems. First one is, Joseph Smith stated in“Teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith pg 107” His brother Alvin entered into the exaltation with out doing a thing, not even baptism which according to the LDS is a requirement. know Joseph Smith states here in Doc of Salvation vol 1 pg 98, “Joseph Smith taught a plurality of Gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a God.

I find it interesting how the prophets brother makes it into exaltation with out keeping the law, yet these two prophets seem to disagree. One disagree’s or contradicts himself, by stating his brother was in and he admits this was a surprise, but then goes on to say we must obey the WHOLE LAW. Then the other prophet states we need only to believe. This is why I feel their is much confusion, and even though you feel Bruce was wrong on some issues, that fact remains that every one disagrees with some one within the LDS church or they disagree with the 4 standard works.

I pointed out some time ago how these 2 prophets even disagreed as to the BOM or D and C being more important. So the question still remains who is correct in all of this and even after you or someone else say this person is correct how can we truly trust that person to be correct? I also would point out along this lines that within Christian circles, lets say pastors from a few different demonitions were to write books on the church, the gifts, holy spirit, ect and it denied the Bible, well then that’s easy, the pastors are wrong the Bible is correct. Not so with in Mormonism, to much confusion, so much so that so-called prophets even disagree with each other and the 4 standard works.

Well I have shown plenty of the Prophets and Presidents and how they don’t agree with each other or the 4 standard works. So let me end with this last few things. This is a teaching of the LDS that I happen to follow very faithfully. (SHOCK) a non-lds Member that really is following the church’s teachings, yep for once I am. Here it goes.

Read pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.

I quote Joseph F Smith. “CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false”.

Read also

D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public. If I am your enemy which I don’t feel I am but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff. Jesus said love your enemy. D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church’s public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any. why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the Mormon prophets? if so, then I am.

I quote Orsan Pratt still pg 15. “we ask from you the same generosity–protect us in the exercise of our religious rights–CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds”.

I am just trying to look at Mormonism in a logical way and point out what I believe are problems. I find it interesting that Mormons of old were willing to tell others they were wrong or be open to talks. but it does not appear to be that way today. I hope this really makes you examine your faith. If you would like to talk privately off line you are more than welcome. Rick Beaudin

What must I do, to be saved? (In Mormonism)?

In order to understand the differences between Being saved in Christianity vs being saved as Mormonism describes it, we must define the word salvation, according to how the LDS church defines the word.

In the book, Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, we read under the title, Salvation, page 669-670. There are two forms of salvation.

1st. General Salvation.
In short, it means every one will be raised from the dead.

2nd. Individual.
That which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation. (D and C 20:29;2 Ne. 9:23-24.) All others are damned, for as Amulek said: “How can ye be saved except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven?” Futher: Christ “shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.” (Alma 11:37-41.) Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go onto exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be “ministering servants, to minster for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.” They will live “separately and singly” in an unmarried state “without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity.” (D and C. 132:16-17.)

3. Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, “their is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” (D and C. 6:13.)This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D and C. 131:1-4;132.) Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness,and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power,there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angles, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirt, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 2, pp. 1-350.)
Now, according to this view of salvation, I have a few problems. Bruce admits that not all will be saved. He does not say they will go to hell, but that not everyone will be saved. He states that in order to enter the highest heaven, which is truly salvation, you must be married. This is not merely his own opinion, but it is a teaching of the LDS church. Read the book, “Achieving a Celestial Marriage.” It also states this idea. So all the LDS who die before being married and sealed in the temple, I guess there goes your salvation! Here is something that really should bother anyone, even a faithful LDS member: Bruce said,
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation.
If the restoration were really True, then it would be because of the Lord, not Joseph Smith. Lets not place Joseph Smith on any sort of pedistal. He was a mere man like everyone else. The other thing that bothers me is,
There is no salvation outside of the LDS church.
I suppose if this is true, then not ALL will be saved. How could they? Let’s look at some verses now.
1 Ne. 6: 4
4 For the fulness of mine intent is that I may persuade men to come unto the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and be saved.

1 Ne. 13: 37
37 And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb.

1 Ne. 13: 40
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.

1 Ne. 22: 31
31 Wherefore, ye need not suppose that I and my father are the only ones that have testified, and also taught them. Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And thus it is. Amen.

2 Ne. 2: 9
9 Wherefore, he is the first fruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.

2 Ne. 6: 12
12 And blessed are the Gentiles, they of whom the prophet has written; for behold, if it so be that they shall repent and fight not against Zion, and do not unite themselves to that great and abominable church, they shall be saved; for the Lord God will fulfill his covenants which he has made unto his children; and for this cause the prophet has written these things.

2 Ne. 9: 23
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 10: 24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

2 Ne. 25: 13
13 Behold, they will crucify him; and after he is laid in a sepulchre for the space of three days he shall rise from the dead, with healing in his wings; and all those who shall believe on his name shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

2 Ne. 25: 20
20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 15
15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 16
16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

2 Ne. 31: 21
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

2 Ne. 33: 12
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.

Jacob 6: 4
4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiff necked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Mosiah 4: 8
8 And this is the means whereby salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this which hath been spoken of; neither are there any conditions whereby man can be saved except the conditions which I have told you.

Mosiah 12: 33
33 But now Abinadi said unto them: I know if ye keep the commandments of God ye shall be saved.

Mosiah 13: 32
32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be saved except it were through the redemption of God.

Mosiah 16: 13
13 And now, ought ye not to tremble and repent of your sins, and remember that only in and through Christ ye can be saved?
If hell is not real, then when these verses speak about being “saved,” I must ask, what are we saved from? Also, reading the verses I posted from the BoM, I must say, they do not fit the context of salvation according to Bruce McConkie. What I mean by not fitting the context is this: these verses say we cannot be saved if we don’t repent or believe on Jesus Christ. So how does that fit with being “saved” being nothing more than rising from the dead, or that we must be married to enter the 3rd heaven.

Now here are more verses from the LDS scriptures that mention eternal hell or damnation.

Jacob 7: 18
18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

Alma 42: 16
16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
D&C 19: 11
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

D&C 76: 44
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment
We also read in the Book, “Miracle of Forgivness,” that no one on their death bed can repent. How can they be saved if they are not allowed to repent? What about people who commit murder?

Doctrine and Covenants 42:18 says, “…he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.”

Joseph Fielding Smith taught, “Murderers Denied Vicarious Ordinances…we do not have the privilege of performing the ordinances for murderers who shed innocent blood, nor for those who take their own lives…If we find in our record one of this kind, we should pass him by and not attempt to do the work for him…” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:192)
If people who commit murder cannot be forgiven, then I guess not all can be saved.

The Prophet Spencer Kimball Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual pg 30 makes it very clear we must do certain things to enter the temple to be saved. He gives a list of 6 things called (TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW). It says When you are interviewed for a temple recommend you will be asked about,

1. Church attendance
2. Payment of tithes and offerings
3. Loyalty to Church leaders.
4. Moral cleanliness.
5. overall faithfulness and worthiness.
6. Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.
Notice it says “Obedience to the Word of Wisdom.” Yet Many LDS members do not follow this. Also we read in Gospel Principles pg 125: WE MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D and C 1:32). we are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the sabbath day holy or obey the word of wisdom. We are not repentant if we don’t sustain the authorities of the church and don’t love the lord and our fellow man. Yet again many LDS do not meet this requirement.

If we do not do these things, we cannot be saved. Now you can read all of the book of Acts and all of chapter 16, but here is the easiest and simplest way to be saved.
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Now you decide, do you want to be a Mormon and follow all these rules and still never know if you are saved? Or do you want to simply call out to Jesus and be saved?

My Open Letter of Apology to the Gay Community (From A Christian)

I’m seeing quite a few open letters of apology from Christians to the gay community in light of the recent Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage. At first, I was angry. “What are we apologizing for again?!?,” I thought. As a conservative Christian, I was annoyed. It seemed – at first – to be capitulation on a very important issue. After reading more than a few of these open letters of apology, however, my heart has softened on the issue. I realize that conservative Christians like myself are in the clear minority. The Supreme Court has ruled. Other churches, like the Episcopalians just yesterday, have found it in their heart to soften from their historic, traditional opinions. And as much as religious people love the past, I’ve had to come to grips with the reality that this – gay marriage – is our present and no doubt, our future.

There comes that moment – even for Christians steeped in conservative traditions – to recognize when the times have changed…and the times have changed. Taking a cue from other Christians who find a sense of closure in writing an open letter of apology to the gay community, I will follow suit and apologize for several things on behalf of not just myself, but my fellow Christians.

Dear Gay Community,

As a Christian who has been forced to evaluate where I stand in recent days in light of Scripture, in both tone and message, I would like to apologize for myself and other Christians…

1. I’m sorry that any of us ever referred to you as a “gay community.” Really, that’s not helpful. A “community” is a group of individuals that either live in the same place or share the same values. Sodomy (defined as unnatural and immoral sexual behavior) is not a value. Sodomy is a deviancy. Now, if you defined “community” as sharing interests and not values, then there could theoretically be a gay community because you hold unnatural and immoral sexual behavior as a common interest. However, to call you a “community” would legitimize this sin in a way that we don’t legitimize any other sin. For example, we don’t recognize “the thieving community” or the “the lying community” or “the bank-robbing community” or “the rapist community” or the “white collar criminal community.” If communities could be founded upon self-destructive behavior, those communities would be self-defeating, and a self-defeating community is no community at all. In fact, a truly “gay community” would be extinct within one generation. Your unnatural sexual deviancy leads to death; legitimate communities are self-populating and regenerative. It was a dumb term for Christians to start using, and I apologize for all of those who inadvertently give credence to the narrative that yours is a community and not a group of sinners who share in community-destroying behavior.

2. I’m sorry that Christians have made a habit of referring to you as LGBT or LGBTQ or by any other acronym or term, identifying you by your sin. First, it is unfair and unhelpful to identify you by your sin. This is actually discriminatory against you, because we don’t behave this way toward any other group of sinners. Adulterers don’t find their identity in adultery. Liars don’t find their identity in lying. Gluttons don’t find their identity in gluttony. We tend to view others as “people who happen to [fill in the blank with any number of sins].” We haven’t viewed you as people – first and foremost – who suffer from the sinful desire of sodomy. Now, you have self-identified as LGBT, because there is a unique tendency when it comes to homosexuality to let the sin consume you as a person, but we should not have participated in the unfortunate reality that your identity has become wrapped up in sinful behavior. If you thought of yourself as a person who suffers from homosexual desires, rather than as a homosexual, you might realize that you’re more than your specific sexual deviancy. God created you to be so much more than a sexual-preference. I’m sorry that leaders like Russell Moore at the ERLC use that term. It’s got to be confusing to you, and altogether unhelpful.

Secondly, I’m sorry we’ve used the term LGBT because it’s a stupid, short-sighted and discriminatory term. Remember back when it was “gay and lesbian?” Ah, good times. Then, bi-sexual became a part of the identity-status. Then, transexual was joined into the acronym. However, it just plain falls short of all the various sexual deviancies out there. And so next, Q was added. “Queer,” you would think, would cover just about everything. And yet, I’m willing to bet that people self-identifying as “queer” would object to certain other sexual deviancies claiming that nomenclature (for now, anyway). How many letters will be added in the end? From a Christian perspective, I apologize we ever used the term. It implies that we – or God – cares about what your particular sexual fetish is. We don’t, honestly. There are two types of sexual behavior, and only one of which is honored by God and to be celebrated by his people. There is a sexual relationship between husband and wife, and there is every other kind of sexual relationship in the world. There are really only two categories. Christians have had such a hard time putting homosexuality in the sin category (and leaving it there) because we have a tendency to overlook opposite-sex, premarital or extramarital fornication within our own churches. We’ve turned a blind eye to cohabitating couples in our churches for decades. Now, don’t get me wrong – homosexuality is used in the Bible over and again as an example of the depths of human depravity. I don’t want to be guilty of sin-leveling, here. I just want to point out that in the broadest spectrum, there is approvedsexual behavior and deviant sexual behavior. Classifying you as LGBTQ or XYZABC is really irrelevant, and Christians shouldn’t have ever been using these terms. Plus, there are way more than 26 sexual deviancies out there, and we’d eventually run out of alphabet.

3. I’m sorry that we’ve given you the impression that “self-identifying” is a thing. Yes, I know I’ve used the term to get a point across in this letter of apology. But, here’s the thing…you don’t get to “self-identify.” God gave you your identity. Bruce Jenner is not Caitlyn. That’s silly. He’s a guy who emasculated himself to look like a woman, adding breasts and makeup and tucking appendages. It’s a game of dress up, essentially. And if he were to remove his genitalia, he still wouldn’t be a woman. He’d be a man without his genitalia. Bruce Jenner will never have PMS. That’s because he’s not a woman. It’s really, really mean for Christians to be anything but straightforward with this reality. I’m convinced that Bruce Jenner doesn’t have people around him that loves him, or else they would tell him that he doesn’t look like a beautiful woman. He looks like the person that kids on the bus snicker at behind them, and dare one another to go up and touch. Christians, if we were loving, would say “Bless your heart, but you’re not a woman. You’re a man trying to look like a woman, but no one really thinks you’re accomplishing that so well. You are Bruce, and God made you to be Bruce, and you can never be Caitlyn.”

Yes, I know that sounds terribly mean. However, if you were turning yourself into a hideous creature by trying to destroy the handiwork of God manifest in your body, you would want someone to give you a dose of reality. Christians, just as we should tell our kids that when we say, “You can be anything you want when you grow up,” that we don’t mean a butterfly, shouldn’t give people the impression that they’re free to identify however they choose. I may identify as a seven foot tall black man, but it doesn’t mean that I am. Christians should be truth-tellers, and to use the pronouns “her” or “she” when referring to those who God made male (or vice versa) is to bear witness against both our creator and those who are trying to mutilate their flesh. I’m sorry that professing Christians have done that.

4. I’m sorry that Christians have given you the impression that you can be both a born-again Christian and an unrepentant practitioner of sodomy. The Apostle Paul was very clear in 1st Corinthians 6, that homosexuality is one of the sins for which men must repent and leave if they are to follow Christ. “And that is what some of you were (verse 11)” in the context of this passage, demonstrates that there were not practitioners of these sins in the midst of the church. This list of sins marked an unbeliever, and not a believer. Yes, I know there are lots of professing Christians (think of them as “self-identifying Christians”) who are not so, in reality. They are of whom the Scripture speaks in Romans 1, who “give approval unto those who practice such sins.” Because we love you, we should have clarified that you should, under no circumstance, consider yourself a believer in Jesus until that belief leads you to repentance.

5. I’m sorry that we insisted for so long that you were not born this way. But hey, to be honest, y’all have fought amongst yourselves on that one (and are still fighting about it). I think it was important to some of us to believe that this sin was entirely the product of your choice. This was a theological fail on our part. While the behavior is entirely the product of your choice, the inclination ordesire is a product of Original Sin and denotes a depraved inherited nature (back to Romans 1again). Some of you may claim your behavior is “natural.” While we know on one level that it is unnatural (which is why the sin is so clearly condemned in Scripture – you don’t need God’s written Law to know it’s wrong; nature itself testifies against it), the fact is, it may be in your unconvertednature. This is why you need a new nature that is found only by being born again. As a Christian, I apologize for all those who are theologically inept and don’t understand how ingrained sin is into our flesh. Of course, this is the point of being born again – to be made new and to receive a new nature.

6. Finally, I apologize for all the professed Christians that you thought had convictions, only to find out that they were sniveling, driveling compromise machines. It probably surprised you how they changed their tune and their tone when the Supreme Court ruled. That’s especially tragic. It’s tragic, because I know that your conscience is cutting you. I know that even truth suppressed in unrighteousness hurts. It’s painful, I’m sure. You might even be on the look-out for conviction and resolve and truth, and while perhaps being glad to see the rainbow filter go on your professing-Christian Facebook friends’ profiles, you’re a little let down that there isn’t an unchanging reality out there somewhere. Down deep, you know that you need that. I’m sorry for all those who have professed Christ, but haven’t loved you (or Him) enough to dig their heels in and speak a truth that’s as helpful as it is inconvenient.

I sincerely hope you’ll forgive us for these shortcomings, and we strive to do better in the future.

Homosexuals, Love vs hate?

So I was watching the news today, and I live in MN. They hade a local bridge and TV station lit up in the rainbow colors and they interviewed a bunch of Homosexuals from the local pride day they had here in MN. The homosexuals and people who are ok with it were saying things like, were standing in respect and solidarity of what happened with the Murders. While I’m not gay and do not agree with there lifestyle, I also do not in anyway, condone mass murder of any group.

Also the Homosexuals were saying, Hate will not win and they will not be bullied and pushed around by anyone. So with that, here is what I want to address and ask why hardly anyone that claims to be Christian is addressing this issue? The Homosexuals claim they are hated and bullied by people who do not agree with them, yet they are the most INTOLERANT group of people to ever exist, they are bullies and can be very hateful.

If anyone claims they dont agree with the gay lifestyle, unless your a Muslim, since no matter what Muslims do, even killing homosexuals, in foreign countries or here in the US. We have homosexuals taking Christians to court and sueing them for not baking a cake, or taking pictures of there wedding, or trying to say were committing hate crimes for simply saying we dont agree with there lifestyle. Any one even atheists can lose there jobs over this issue.

Tell me Homosexuals dont bully people, or threaten them, or intimidate people. thats what they do, lets stop acting like Homosexuals never do anything wrong and they are all a bunch of loving kind people that bend over backwards to show love and respect to everyone. If you really believe that, then walk up and tell them you disagree with there lifestyle and think its wrong and see what they say and do.

Contemporary christian Music (Legalism issue)

My topic at hand is this, a lot of people on Face Book are really going hard after Christians for listening to Contemporary christian Music. Now before everyone just reads and assumes that I’m wrong and defending anyone or any music, let me clearly state that my issue is not so much the music, but the so called Christians that are going after other Christians for listening to the music and I will give examples. Now let me say, I am very open to saying if you claim something is evil, wrong or of the devil or what ever, I’m open to talking about the subject.

Now if you read the Bible in acts 17:11 it says, They searched the scriptures to know if these things are true. And in Isaiah 1:18 it says, Come let us reason together says the Lord. Here is one of my problems, Christians that claim if you listen to christian music that the music is of the devil. Now if you believe it is, then thats fine, all I want is to talk about this in a reasonable fashion and I want strong evidence from people. Now many of these Christians that attack other Christians for listening to Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) just provide vague, blanket statements and ignore bigger issues, In other words, they pick and choose what they will go after and ignore things that get pointed out to them. This makes them Hypocrites and shows they bear false witness.

So lets start with this, Jimmy Miller posted and article on face book saying this, Contemporary “Christian” music is of the DEVIL! A short list of these devils is: Michael W. Smith, Natalie Grant, Amy Grant, ThirdDay, Steven Curtis Chapman, Audio Adrenaline, Point of Grace, Jeremy Camp, Family-Force-5, Kutless, Addison Road, MercyMe, Hawk Nelson, Tenth Avenue North, Super-Chick, FlyLeaf, Skillet, Newsboys, Lecrae, KJ-52, David Crowder, Needtobreathe, TobyMac, Brandon Heath, Tim Timmons ,the Rhett Walker Band, Luminate, Switchfoot, We As Human,Casting Crowns, Sidewalk Prophets, Mandisa, Chris Tomlin, and many more

Now I admit and agree, that there might be some CCM artists that are wrong, one example given and I fully agree with was, Amy Grant. But just because one or two people might be wrong does not mean everyone is wrong and I get sick and tired of the blanket statements when people just blast everyone as being wrong. So in addition to this list here is a link to some you tube videos claiming to expose CCM artists as wolves in sheeps clothing, here is the link.

Now let me point out, First off, not everyone listed above is mentioned in this You tube link. Second of all Here are some problems that I have with these you tube videos. 1. All comments are closed, so my problem with keeping comments closed, Is no one can give evidence proving what this guy is saying is wrong, if there is any, and no one can ask for more evidence, or asking for things to be clarified or anything. To me this is a problem. Then my other issue is, When you watch the videos, every video is the same, its a set screen with a few pictures on it and a guy talking and saying why these people are wrong. There is no “Real” evidence, like Videos of the guy talking and saying, here is me interviewing Said CCM artist and him denying Jesus on video. So I just have to blindly believe this guy is not lying. It goes back to the old adage, if its on the internet, it must be true, and well its a christian claiming to expose these people and you know Christians would not make this stuff up or lie about it. Right (Said with sarcasm).

Now I have been going back and forth with a guy here on face book over this topic, and his name is, Bruce pepper. One thing Bruce said to me is, one reason why these CCM bands are wrong is because they look to the secular Music bands for inspiration. While that might be true, That does not make them evil. As King Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. So we have Christians that are Chefs, or plumbers, or carpenters, or lawyers, or Doctors. These guys are all doing things that they look to others who are most likely atheists for inspiration, Does that mean we must start only looking to people claiming to be Christians? So if I need a plumber and he is not a christian I should not use him? If he claims to be a christian, do I question him to make sure are beliefs line up with mine? So If I hold a pre-trib view and my plumber holds a mid trib view I should not use him? Thats crazy. Then I pointed out to Bruce on the topic, if you go to a grocery store and it turns out a homosexual or Muslim is working, do you walk out? If you dont walk out, then by default your paying for them to be employed and your helping them out, so are you then partaking in there evil deeds? He never replied to that.

Now I also pointed out a few things to Bruce that he never addressed, one thing I said was, I guess the apostle Paul never Got the memo from you Bruce that we cannot look to “secular” Sources. The Apostle Paul came up with the whole Armour of God from being chained to roman soldiers. Paul was with them and saw how they were dressed and used them as an example. Then something else Paul said was this, Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. Wow, again, Paul did not get the memo of quoting sources other than christian sources. So I guess Paul used “Secular” Sources. That was never addressed.

Now I gave two CCM artists names and songs and I asked, what exactly is it about these people and there songs that are wrong or of the devil, When I asked this, no one touched it, they just ignored it, so I will give more info this time. I will name three CCM artists, there songs, and give full and exact lyrics to the songs. If you feel they are evil or of the devil, please explain how and why. First song and artist is Jeremy Camp, the song is “Same Power” and here are the lyrics.

Same Power:
I can see
Waters raging at my feet
I can feel
The breath of those surrounding me
I can hear
The sound of nations rising up
We will not be overtaken
We will not be overcome

I can walk
Down this dark and painful road
I can face
Every fear of the unknown
I can hear
All God’s children singing out
We will not be overtaken
We will not be overcome

The same power that rose Jesus from the grave
The same power that commands the dead to wake
Lives in us, lives in us
The same power that moves mountains when He speaks
The same power that can calm a raging sea
Lives in us, lives in us
He lives in us, lives in us

We have hope
That His promises are true
In His strength
There is nothing we can’t do
Yes, we know
There are greater things in store
We will not be overtaken
We will not be overcome

Greater is He that is living in me
He’s conquered our enemy
No power of darkness
No weapon prevails
We stand here in victory

Next Song, At the Cross, by Chris Tomlin

There’s a place
Where mercy reigns
And never dies
There’s a place
Where streams of grace
Flow deep and wide
Where all the love
I’ve ever found
Comes like a flood
Comes flowing down
At the cross, at the cross
I surrender my life
I’m in awe of You
I’m in awe of You
Where Your love ran red
And my sin washed white
I owe all to You
I owe all to You Jesus
There’s a place
Where sin and shame
Are powerless
Where my heart
Has peace with God
And forgiveness
Where all the love
I’ve ever found
Comes like a flood
Comes flowing down
At the cross, at the cross
I surrender my life
I’m in awe of You
I’m in awe of You
Where Your love ran red
And my sin washed white
I owe all to You
I owe all to You
Here my hope is found
Here on holy ground
Here I bow down
Here I bow down
Here arms open wide
Here You save my life
Here I bow down
Here I bow down
At the cross, at the cross
I surrender my life
I’m in awe of You
I’m in awe of You
Where Your love ran red
And my sin washed white
I owe all to You
I owe all to You
I owe all to You
I owe all to You
Jesus (oh)
(Savior of the world)
(Jesus) (Savior of the world)
Where Your love ran red
Your love ran red

Last song,
Holy Spirit
By Francesca Battistelli
There’s nothing worth more
That could ever come close
No thing can compare
You’re our living hope
Your presence, Lord
I’ve tasted and seen
Of the sweetest of loves
Where my heart becomes free
And my shame is undone
Your presence, Lord
Holy Spirit, You are welcome here
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere
Your glory, God, is what our hearts long for
To be overcome by Your presence, Lord
Your presence, Lord
There’s nothing worth more
That could ever come close
No thing can compare
You’re our living hope
Your presence, Lord
I’ve tasted and seen
Of the sweetest of loves
Where my heart becomes free
And my shame is undone
Your presence, Lord
Holy Spirit, You are welcome here
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere
Your glory, God, is what our hearts long for
To be overcome by Your presence, Lord
Your presence, Lord
Let us become more aware of Your presence
Let us experience the glory of Your goodness
Let us become more aware of Your presence
Let us experience the glory of Your goodness
Let us become more aware of Your presence
Let us experience the glory of Your goodness
Let us become more aware of Your presence
Let us experience the glory of Your goodness
Holy Spirit, You are welcome here
Come flood this place and fill the atmosphere
Your glory, God, is what our hearts long for
To be overcome by Your presence, Lord

Wow, these songs are simply ungodly pieces of trash that are just full of hate, praising satan, denying Jesus, and full of error. Not! please note massive amounts of sarcasm. Now here is the problem, If someone says, ok Rick, your right, nothing wrong with these songs, then we have a problem. The problem is, all the people that made these blanket statements saying ALL CCM artists are of the devil. So since pride will get in peoples way and they cannot admit they are wrong, they will find a way to trash these songs.

Now here is something I pointed out to Bruce and again, no one addressed this issue. If these Christians who go after other Christians for listening to Christians music and make these blanket statements and claiming all are of the devil and friends of the devil, and do not provide strong evidence, then what if I were to do the same exact thing? What if I said, all the christian street preachers who are going to New Orleans to street preach for Madi Gras are really doing it so they can see women walk around topless or expose themselves to these guys? If I said that, people would demand evidence and claim I am a liar and bearing false witness, yet these same people can make bold claims about CCM artists and those who listen to it, and when someone like me questions it, I get flack over it.

Now from the original topic, here is some exact quotes from me and Bruce.
Bruce Pepper said: God’s Word declares if you’re a friend of the world you’re God’s enemy these bands are nothing but tools of the devil to trick people into being a friend of the world.
I would rather my kids listen to death metal then to listen to Mercy Me. There’s no deception in that.

Rick said:
Bruce throws mercy me under the bus and gives zero evidence to exactly what they are doing that is wrong? Thats accusing and bearing false witness.

I replied with,
Rick Beaudin: I dont see how listing to CCM is being a friend of the world. Thats a stretch. Then the bible says, to the pure, all things are pure. When I listen to CCM I dont hear messages of death, drugs, or even stuff like, listen to this pastor or read this book. I think stuff like this is more a trick of the devil to get Christians fighting over stupid stuff rather than going after the lost.

Bruce Pepper said: All that shows is you just gobble up what they play and you truly know nothing about them. Amy Grant is a fornicating adulteress who promotes the gay agenda. on and on and on.
An you wouldn’t be able to recognize it, being a fan of the world, and the outwardly wicked things of the world your self. that is unless someone else liked UFC in your likes.
Nobody ever sings amazing grace like Elvis Presley, that doesn’t change the fact that he’s burning in hell today. The Bible says without holiness no man shall see the Lord. straight is the gate narrow is the way few there be to find it. come out from among them and be separate says the Lord.
God’s Word says, what fellowship does light have with darkness. we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to our children to prove what it is these people believe what their fruit is and how they live and most of all we owe it to God

Rick says: Funny that Bruce says that and yet does not do it, no evidence or anything.

Rick Beaudin said: Bruce Pepper, first off, I dont listen to every single person that sings CCM. I dont like Amy grant or her music, I know all about her and dont promote her in any way. Then have you heard any music by Chris Tomlin? He signs, at the cross. Whats ungodly about that song? Then you dont like the ufc and I do. So what? That does not make me friends of the world. Its men fighting, men do that. God is a warrior and a fighter. OT men fought, Men in the military fight. Israel teaches krav maga. I did judo and jujitsu, so I understand and appreciate the sport. I was able to share Jesus with people, and many fighters do know Jesus and hold bible studies. Yet you can say 100 percent with certainty they are not saved? Wow, I never knew you were God.

Bruce Pepper said: If you spend more time learning and obeying your Bible, friend you would know the answer to these things your self.

Rick Beaudin said: Ok, go listen to my radio show, on my website. After you listen to a few of my shows on podcast form then come back and tell me what I’m wrong about or how I dont know scripture. If need be I will be more than happy to have you on my show and you can tell my listeners where I’m wrong and we can talk on air. Because I’m really tired of all this self righteous attitudes from Christians. Everything they dont like or agree with is shoved upon other Christians. We might as well as go back to the shepherding doctrine and well all come to you and ask for permission. If you choose not to listen to my shows then you cannot tell me I dont know anything since you claim I dont know scripture and either prove it or dont bear false witness.

Bruce Pepper said: I’ll listen to as much as I can stand. The Bible commands modesty. 4 – half naked men to beat each other to gain a worldly corruptible crown, is not Christianity and for you to think that it is your deceived.

Rick said:
So I really suspect Bruce will not listen to my show and tell me where I am wrong. And I can tell anyone who has never listened to my show, I am no soft spoken, tickle your ears kind of Joel Osteen type of guy. I dont hold back, tell it like it is and go after anyone and everyone, and put out the challenge of, if you think I am wrong, come on my show and debate me.

Now here is some more things that I feel many of these Christians are getting to the point of being self righteous hypocrites. There is two different face book christian street preachers, one guy named Allen Puckett, claimed if you love foot ball you cannot be saved. Wow I did not know Allen was God and had the ability to state who could be saved and why. He also stated if you watch foot ball your a wicked person who hates sinners and he ended it with PASTORS!!!!!!
I did not know he knew peoples hearts and was aware that they hated people if they watched foot ball. Now we have a 2nd well respected street preacher that I really like and have no issues with, he posted an article on foot ball and said in the article it was about high school or college foot ball. In the article it was more focused on the cheer leaders and how they went to court to fight to have a banner with a bible verse on it. you can look up the article by Ruben I sreal. I asked him in this article about what Allen said, Ruben said no one will go to hell for watching foot ball, and one person that read the article was bashing the cheer leaders
for the way they dress. Unlike many of these Christians, Ruben tried showing some grace and said about the cheer leaders, can you be happy to just receive a crumb? He was basically saying, these people were complaining about the way the cheerleaders were dressed and Ruben was praising them for trying to fight the school and get a verse on the banner. When I pointed this out to Allen, he unfriended me and claimed I was trying to pit him against a fellow street preacher.

I said, thats not true, my point was/is, two christian street preachers cannot agree, and so if you cannot agree, then who is right and who is wrong and why?
Now here is something I did with Bruce. Many of the Christians who post and speak out against sports, or CCM or having tattoos, Etc come across as very Self righteous and try and act as if they are perfect and do nothing wrong, yet everyone who likes these things are sinners going to hell. So what I did was, I looked over Bruce’s face book friends list. He was giving me a hard time for listening to CCM and watching Mixed Martial Arts in the way of the UFC. So what did I find in his friends list? Well let me tell you. I replied to Bruce under the topic with this, Rick Beaudin said: Bruce Pepper, here’s the best one yet. When people send you a friend request, do you blindly accept them? Or do you view there profile first? Do you blindly send out friend requests? I was looking through your friends list on your timeline. One is a guy, he’s posing in a DOJO with his friends/team, they are all about the samurai fighting style, did you go and confront them? Then there was one lady, some pretty profane stuff she’s got posted as far as swearing and things. Then one photo broken into like 10 little pictures with all sorts of women dressed in ways exposing themselves and almost naked. Did you confront her? No, I doubt you care, yet you can jump on this topic and call out Christians over christian music. Hypocrite, you’ve been warned.

Then in another case, there was another Face Book Christian who posted this topic, (I wonder how many so called, “Christians” missed church tonight just so they could watch the Super Bowl? Wicked! They have made football their god. I like football it teaches sportsmanship, discipline and team work but when you put it before the Lord that’s when it become’s a problem. These Athletes didn’t die for you and your sins, JESUS DID!)

Now if he wants to go after Christians for watching foot ball, then fine, but here is my issue with him, This guy from face book, Duraid Alshahath was replying to the foot ball topic by posting verses from the Quran, here is what he said,

Duraid Alshahath [62.11] Yet when they see some commerce or amusement they flock to it, leaving you standing. Say: ‘That which is with Allah is better than the amusement and commerce. Allah is the Best of Providers.

I replied with,
Rick Beaudin Wow, quoting from the unholy Quran.

He said,
Duraid Alshahath [61.14] Believers, be the helpers of Allah. When (Prophet) Jesus, the son of Mary said to the disciples: ‘Who will be my helpers unto Allah? ‘ The disciples replied: ‘We will be the helpers of Allah. ‘ A party of the Children of Israel believed, and a party disbelieved. So, We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they overcame.

I replied with,
Rick Beaudin The Quran is not the word of God, the quran is the word of satan given to a child molesting god hating pagan. Why are you quoting from it? You Muslim.

He then replies with a bible verse,
Duraid Alshahath Rick Beaudin MARK 12-29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Rick Beaudin I have no problem with the bible, and I know what it says. But if you call yourself a christian, why are you quoting from a book that teaches Jews and christians and Muslims who walk away from the faith, must die? And a unholy, ungodly book that teaches the trinity is false and people who teach it must die and will go to hell.

Then he provided a link to a youtube video of some guy who converted to Islam, and this guys was praising how awesome Islam is, and he sent me a friend request. I declined and left this reply.

Rick Beaudin So your a muslim, thats great great, Not, your heading to hell for following a God hating false religion. Just so you are aware, I am fully aware of what the Quran teaches. I know , because I am reading from the quran live on my radio show over the internet. I am not reading it word for word on my show, but in some cases I do read from entire Surahs and in most cases I read long sections for people to hear for themselves exactly what the Quran says. The book is evil and not from the God of the Bible. In case you want to hear me read from the quran. all my past shows are in podcast form.

Now you might ask, whats this have to do with CCM? Well just like people arguing over CCM and complaining about it, yet they ignore the bigger issues, like people friending people that post wicked things like porn, or how people claim I am wrong for watching the UFC but taking friend requests by the same types of people and you Christians say nothing. Or whats worse, Christians listening to CCM or Christians not speaking up when So called Christians post quotes from the Quran on your topics and you sit by and say nothing? I see these things way more often than people care to admit and it just gets really old and tiring, Christians being Hypocrites by what they say and refuse to address and deal with things that are more important.

Can Christians go to war and use Guns in self defense?

I’m writing this article because I see so many “so called” Christian men who will not stand up and fight against evil or defend their family, if needed. These men use the Bible to justify themselves being cowards and spineless girls. The vast majority of these people are posters on Facebook. They speak out against the military and claim these people are going to hell for their service. The problem with these people who condemn the military and their service just shows these people have no clue about what the Bible really teaches. The word “war” appears 220 times in the KJV. Our God, The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3: “The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.”

Now, before I go on, let me explain what this is about. Way too many Christian men, and I use the word men lightly, speak out against other Christian men who choose to serve in the military and want to defend our freedoms and defend those who cannot defend themselves: women, children, old folks, the sick and weak. I have heard many times that people like me are called warmongers because we believe in defending others. So, let’s go through the Bible and see in both the O.T and the N.T what it says about war, battles, and God.

Exodus 17:16: “For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.” When the Lord says that He will have war with Amalek from generation to generation, people need to understand, God used His people to go to war. We don’t have any record of God coming and fighting with these people one man against Amalek from generation to generation. So, yes, there are times where God sends His people into battle and war. Numbers 1:3: “From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.” Now, if you back up and read verses 1:1-2, you will see that it was God who told Moses to number the people for war. Numbers 10:9: “And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.”

God did not ever say we cannot defend ourselves or our land as many people seem to claim He did. If they did not go to war ever to defend themselves, Israel would have never existed, and neither would the United States. I dont know what the world would be like since I can only assume that some evil group would have probably taken over the world years ago, back before Rome even existed. But even if we made it to this point, it’s likely Hitler would have never been stopped and he would have ruled the world. He would have killed even more people, or maybe Japan would have won. Num 31:21: “And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses.” Num 32:6: “And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?” Deuteronomy 1:41″ “Then ye answered and said unto me, We have sinned against the LORD, we will go up and fight, according to all that the LORD our God commanded us. And when ye had girded on every man his weapons of war, ye were ready to go up into the hill.”

I’m not going to keep adding verses from the O.T because as I said, there are 220 verses alone on war and with the few I added you get the point. God commanded people to go to war; He never condemned them for doing so.

Let’s look at what the N.T teaches. Luke 14:31 “Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?” Here, Jesus acknowledges people go to war. Jesus never condemned them or said “This is wrong. Don’t do it.”

For all the people who ignore the O.T and claim we cannot use it to say it’s justifiable for going to war or defending ourselves, then let’s use the NT and look at it like this: Do you who claim to be Bible believing Christians believe Jesus IS GOD? Jesus claimed many times He was God. So, if you don’t believe Jesus is God, then you have bigger problems than what I’m talking about here. If you do believe Jesus is God, then here are some things to think about. If Jesus is God, and God made provision for war and self-defense, then Jesus Himself had no problem with it, even if He Himself never mentioned it.

Here is a side note to make the point, and we’re not going too deep into this. Many people claiming to be in favor of homosexual marriage claim Jesus never addressed the homosexual issue specifically by saying homosexuality is wrong. But Jesus did address the issue by quoting from the O.T. and talking about and defining marriage. If Jesus did, and can, use the OT, so can we. We also see the apostles using the OT to make points. So, if you discount the OT for defense of war or self-defense, then that’s your problem and not mine.

Now, let’s look at scriptures from the NT. The Bible says about Jesus: Heb 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.”
Since Jesus is God, we could look at it like this: Yesterday was the O.T and Today is the N.T and forever are the days to come after we see the new heavens and new earth. Now, I know some people might take issue with that and claim that’s a stretch. First of all, I am not saying that is doctrine taught in the Bible. I’m saying it is a way of looking at that verse. I use these words of Jesus to make that point.
John 5:39 “You search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” Jesus Himself said that the scriptures testify of Him; we know these scriptures He speaks of are speaking of Jesus, so that means the OT speaking of God was also speaking of Jesus. Therefore, you can say that Jesus was commanding people to go to war, Jesus was sending people to war, and/or telling people to defend themselves. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would He be ok with us defending ourselves in the OT, but not in the NT?

We read in Hebrews 11:34: “Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.” No place does it condemn people for fighting. It says they wax valiant in fight; they fought. How can you turn armies to flight? Run away? If you don’t fight, how can you route your enemies? Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:8 “For if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?” If Paul had a problem with people going to battle or fighting, why would he use an example of preparing for battle? Now I will add more scripture, but I also want to add some things written from so-called Christians about not defending ourselves. I will break it into parts and add some thoughts on what they said.

Here are a few pages from a book and some of the questions posed in this book. I have asked some of these questions to people who are against war and self-defense. Here are some of the responses of these pacifist Christians, and my thoughts will be added.

From pages 70-74 of “The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down” © David Bercot. Used by permission. Copies can be obtained from Scroll Publishing Co., P. O. Box 122, Amberson, PA 17210 or see their website at

“What if someone were to break into your house and were about to harm your wife and children? Surely you wouldn’t just stand there and let them do it?”

RICK SAYS: Sadly, I have met many Christians that would simply stand there and allow their wife and kids get raped or beaten or killed.

The book goes onto say:
“This question naturally plays on the strong protective instinct that men have toward their families. But the answer a kingdom citizen must give to that question is the same he would give to any other question concerning breaking the commandments of Jesus. Let me ask you. “What if your government told you to deny Jesus Christ and offer a sacrifice to Satan–or else they would violate your wife and kill your children? What would you do?” For kingdom citizen, the answer is quite clear. Jesus has already told us that if we love our families more than Him, we cannot be His disciples. And He has also told us, “Whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven” (Mt. 10:33).”

Rick Says: The response from the author of the book shows ignorance on their part, as far as I’m concerned. One problem is, in the 10 commandments it says, “Thou shalt not murder.” It does not say, “Thou shalt not kill.” And yes, there is a difference. Murder is premeditated. We clearly see times in the O.T where people set out and murdered others, but we also have cases of self-defense. Read the Book of Ester, as I mentioned before. They were allowed to defend themselves. For anyone who claims that it’s not true, read this: Esther 4:14 “For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father’s house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?” Esther was told if she held her peace then help would arise for the Jews another way. She was also told that maybe she was in this position for such a time as this.

Here is another thing I believe the Bible says about this issue. James 4:17 “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” For me, it would be sin to not step in and save lives from rapists and mass murders. If you guys think it’s good to let innocent people die, and stepping and and saving lives is sin, then that’s really sad.

Let’s add this also: 1 Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” Now, there are plenty of these pansy girly men who teach and believe this is only for feeding, clothing and housing your family, but it is also for protection.

Now it goes onto say in the book, “What if your government told you to deny Jesus Christ and offer a sacrifice to Satan–or else they would violate your wife and kill your children? Now, what if, instead of denying Christ, my government ordered me to murder my next door neighbor or to sexually assault his wife? And if I didn’t, they would harm my wife and children? Would the situation be any different from offering a sacrifice to Satan? In one instance, I would be denying Christ with my mouth. In the other, I would be denying him by my actions.”

Rick Says: To me, this is nothing more than a false strawman argument. There is a HUGE difference between just living your life and some random stranger attacking you or raping you or beating up your kids, etc, versus the government trying to force you to do something like kill someone, and if you don’t, they will hurt your family in front of you. There are 1000’s of cases over the years in the news where a women gets raped or a house broken into or a person getting mugged, and we’re talking about defending ourselves in these cases, vs no known accounts of the government coming to you and asking you to murder someone to save your family. The mob might have done that. There are accounts of Joseph Koney, the leader of the Lord’s Resistance Army, doing this. In the cases of the mob doing these things or Joseph K Doing these things, I don’t believe for one minute if you refuse and you and/or your family gets hurt, the Lord will hold it against you. It’s murder if you give in, and you can say no. But, if a random stranger attacks you and you have no choice but to kill them to stop them from killing your family or friends or complete strangers, then its self-defense and not premeditated murder.

More from the book:
“What if a foreign government ordered me to drop a bomb on a United States city, or to assassinate the American president–or else they would harm my wife and children? What should I do? I think most Americans would allow their wives and children to be harmed, or even killed, before betraying their country.
How is the situation any different when it concerns loyalty to Jesus? Jesus’ teachings on nonresistance are quire clear. It’s a matter of either denying Him or denying my family. To be sure, that’s a very difficult choice, but I already made that choice when I gave my life to Christ.”

Rick says:
Again, this is a strawman argument. First of all, this would never happen; second, it’s comparing apples to manure, not even close to the same thing. Re-read what I wrote above.

More from the Book:
“Does that mean I would do nothing to protect my family? Of course not. I have already done the best thing that I could possibly do to ensure their safety: I have entrusted my home and family to the care and protection of Jesus. And that isn’t some naive trust. There are tense of thousands of other Kingdom Christians who have similarly beat their swords into plowshares and entrusted the safety of their families into the hands of their King. And although Jesus has not promised that no harm can ever come to our families, I can say this: that, except in times of religious persecution, it’s very rare for kingdom families to be harmed by ordinary criminals.

One example that comes to mind is the encounter of the desperate criminal fugitive, Stephen Roy Carr, with a nonresistant Mennonite family in Pennsylvania in May of 1988. Earlier Carr had fled from Florida, where he was wanted for grand theft. He was hiding out in the Appalachian mountains, ready to kill anyone who threatened his freedom. Before long, he met two female campers on the Appalachian Trail, and he shot them both–killing one and seriously injuring the other.

Fleeing from the scene, Carr found an abandoned cement-mixing tub and used it to float down the Conodoguinet Creek to the farm of of Chester and Esther Weaver. As conservative Mennonites, the Weavers had no television or radio, and so they had heard nothing about the murder. The fugitive Carr asked the Weavers for food and shelter, which they gladly provided him. Carr stayed in the Weaver home for five days–and yet he neither harmed them nor stole from them. Carr would have stayed longer, but the police finally caught up with him.”

Rick Says:
There are so many stories of Christians getting attacked and killed, and they could have survived if they used lethal force in self-defense. Here is the newest story I will use. Amanda Blackburn, 28, was fatally shot multiple times in her home on Nov. 10, the pregnant wife of Indiana pastor Davey Blackburn. On Nov. 10, after Davey left her alone with their young son, Weston, to work out at the gym around 6:00 a.m., Amanda was viciously beaten and shot three times during a home invasion, according to a copy of the affidavit of probable cause against her suspected killers Larry Jo Taylor Jr., 18, and his accomplice, Jalen Watson, 21. An autopsy conducted on Amanda on Nov. 12 revealed: “(She) sustained a gunshot wound to the back of her head. She also had a gunshot wound to the lower left arm which traveled up to her biceps. She also had a through and through gunshot wound which entered and exited her upper back. “She had “scratches to her left cheek, a split lip and a lower tooth knocked out,” it further noted. Although Taylor and Watson both pleaded not guilty after they were charged with Amanda’s murder, a confidential informant told investigators in the case that Taylor confessed that he shot Amanda because she fought him. “Taylor stated that she charged at him and he shot her somewhere in the upper body so he would not be scratched. Taylor then told them that he leaned over her body and shot her in the back of the head. He leaned further, looked at her face, and watched her bleed,” explained the informant. According to the informant, Taylor, Watson and another accomplice, Diano Gordon, went on a robbery spree that morning because “they wanted money.” The spree ended, according to the informant, with the death of Amanda Blackburn after she decided to fight Taylor who was holding her hostage. Evidence found in the first home Taylor and his group allegedly burglarized on San Clemente drive suggest the men may have been consuming alcohol while on their robbery spree.

According to the author, we just need to trust Jesus. I trust Jesus, but I don’t read in scripture where Jesus was a wimpy, pansy pacifist. First, let’s point out what Bible verses these pansy girly men use to say we should just allow this stuff to happen and not fight back.
Here is an exact list that was given to me from one of these girly men. your enemies: luke 6.35
2.overcome evil with good: romans 12.21
3.God has no pleasure for the wicked to die: ezekiel 33.11 by the sword-die by the sword: matthew 26.52 good to those who hate you: matthew 5.44
6.our sword is the bible: ephesians 6.17
7.the enemies blood is on your hands: ezekiel 3.18
8.turn the other cheek to your enemies: lamentations 3.30 not pay evil for evil, but with a blessing: 1 peter 3.9
10.GUNS, MARINES, POLICY, OR FIGHTING CHRISTIAN MILITIA DO NOT protect us.. GOD PROTECTS US: luke 1.71 / psalm 106.10 / psalm 107.2 / psalm 59.9 / psalm 62.2 / psalm 18.2

So let me point out a few things here.
1. Don’t misunderstand me here. I am in no way trying to diminish God’s word or mock it, but I am trying to make a point.
These people who claim according to the Bible men cannot use lethal force to defend there families use the bible verses listed above. According to the news article I quoted about about the Pastor’s wife being beaten and killed, it states she tried fighting back. Let’s look at the Bible verses again. Again, please remember I am trying to make a point, not mock the Bible or God.

1. Love your enemies.
It seems the pastor’s wife did not do this since she was trying to fight back.

2. Overcome evil with good.
Again, the pastor’s wife did a terrible job of this since she was trying to fight back.

3. God has no pleasure for the wicked to die.
It was not the wicked that died, it was a pastor’s wife, so I’m assuming she was righteous. So, does this mean God takes pleasure in the death of the righteous?

4. Live by the sword-die by the sword.
Well, apparently the ones with “swords” (guns) lived by the sword, but the innocent died by the “sword” (gun).

I could keep going, but you get my point. Here is another thing to think about: the news article states these guys were drinking and most likely drunk. As a Christian, have you ever tried witnessing to someone who was intoxicated either with alcohol or drugs? They are not open to hearing what you have to say, so I suspect no matter how much this women shared the gospel with these guys, they would not be open to hearing it.

Now, back to what I was going to say about Jesus not being a pacifist. This is not exactly an issue of self-defense, but it is Jesus getting mad and cleaning house. Mat 21:12 “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.”

John 2:15 “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables.”

Jesus made a whip of chords and cleaned house. While that’s not killing in self-defense, we could make the case that if we use the pansy’s pacifist view and verses I posted above, it makes you ask these questions: How was Jesus loving His enemies or doing good to those that persecute Him? How is that overcoming evil with good if He is making a whip of chords and chasing people out of the temple?

Let’s look at the apostle Paul. Again, while this is not an issue of self-defense, we see some things in scripture with Paul. In the book of Acts, there was an account where the Jews wanted to Kill the apostle Paul and the Roman soldiers stepped in and saved him. While He did not ask for the help, he did not rebuke them either saying God would have saved him. We have another account in Acts where the Jews vowed an oath to kill Paul, and the Romans have hundreds of soldiers on foot and horse back that again saved Him. Again, he did not rebuke them saying, “I trust in God to save me.” Then, we have another account where Paul had to escape by being let out a window in a basket. Paul did not say, “I will walk out in front of everyone and God will protect me.” Lastly, we have an account where Paul was going to get beat by some Roman soldiers and Paul said he was a free-born Roman and that helped him avoid a beating. Paul never just took the beating and used some excuse that he was being persecuted or were simply to allow that in the name of Jesus. Then, we can read the book of Philemon and in the story a slave escapes and meets Paul. Paul tells him to go back and then fights for the slave’s freedom. While again, it is not self-defense per say, it’s still not just allowing him to get hurt or beaten or killed or enslaved all in the name of “that’s what Jesus meant by loving our enemies or overcoming evil with good,” or other things like that.

Here is a story from the book, “Wheelbarrow Faith.” I will use this story to make my point on what I just said.

“It reminds me of the account given by the Christian author and speaker, Winkey Pratney, concerning the Great Blondin, an incredibly gifted tightrope aerialist of the nineteenth century. To demonstrate his abilities, Blondin stretched a 1100 foot rope above Niagara Falls. To the thrill of huge crowds, he walked across the Falls on his tightrope, performing various spectacular stunts. He even did a back somersault in the middle of the rope. Yet, Blondin had no net underneath to save him if he fell.

A newspaper reporter who had come to witness the spectacle was awe-struck. “I bet there isn’t anything you can’t do out there on the tightrope,” he told Blondin.

“Do you think I could cross the rope pushing a wheelbarrow?” Blondin asked the reporter.

“Oh, I’m sure you could.”

“Do you think I could cross the rope while pushing a wheelbarrow with a man in it?” Blondin asked the reporter.


Looking the reporter straight in the eye, Blondin then asked, “Do you think I could cross the rope pushing a wheelbarrow with you in it?”

“Well, uh…”

But that’s what genuine faith is all about–getting into the wheelbarrow for Christ. Any other kind of faith is not really faith. It’s just words. Most Christians will readily acknowledge that God is all-powerful. They will proclaim that God is in charge of the universe. They say nothing can happen outside of God’s active or permissive will. They’ll plaster bumper stickers on their cars saying, “His angels are watching over me!” But, no, they won’t get into the wheelbarrow. They won’t entrust their family’s safety to God.

So, go back and read the Bible accounts I mentioned of Paul allowing himself to be saved, helping out the slave, and other issues I mentioned. Now ask yourself, Did Paul lack faith? You could argue Paul did not or would not get into the wheel barrel.”

Now, here are some more points from the book.
“Sadly, every year Christian families suffer death and injury from their own weapons because they didn’t put their trust in God. One of the most heartbreaking episodes occurred a few years ago when a man and his wife returned home from a trip. Their daughter was staying at a friend’s house. However, the daughter thought she would surprise her parents by coming home early and hiding in their bedroom closet. When her parents came home, they heard a noise in their closet. Thinking it was a burglar, her father got out his loaded pistol and slowly approached the closet. When the closet door suddenly burst open, her father instinctively pulled the trigger. He immediately realized it was his daughter, but it was too late. She murmured, “I love you, Daddy,” and fell over dead.

This was not some rare occurrence. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than to kill or wound an intruder. Evil can be confronted with less dangerous methods than guns.

A number of years ago, some Christian friends of mine, Decio and Olivia, were staying at a motel in Atlanta. There had been a number of armed robberies and murders in the city. In these robberies, the assailants had ordered their victims to lie face down on the floor and then shot them in the backs of their heads. So Decio was on his guard.

It was a mild October evening, and Decio and Olivia had momentarily left their motel door open for a friend. Suddenly two teenage thugs appeared in the doorway with guns. They ordered everyone down on the floor. Decio hesitated and then knelt down, praying and trying to think of a way to foil the robbery.

His wife, Olivia, thinking it was a Halloween prank, remained seated on the bed. So one of the young robbers waved his gun at her and ordered her to lie on the floor. Instead, she started singing out loud “Jesus Loves Me,” as she got up from the bed and slowly walked over to the two young men. One of them raised his pistol, pointed it at her face, and cocked it. But when she continued singing and walking toward him, he suddenly yelled to his partner, “These are a bunch of Jesus nuts! Let’s get outta here!” And with that, the two young men vanished into the dark.

Over the years, I have heard and read many other accounts of how a prayer, a hymn, or a testimony effectively disarmed a would-be bruglar or assailant. There’s no point singing “Our God Is an Awesome God,” if we don’t really believe that He is.”

Rick’s reply:
Just because a Christian is not properly trained in the use of a gun, or they are and they just make a mistake, does not mean they have lack of faith in God. I pointed this out with the apostle Paul, then with the story of the lady praying and the thugs leaving over them being Jesus freaks. I never denied that kind of stuff happens. But, just look to the story I posted of the pastors wife who was murdered. Did she have lack of faith since she tried fighting back? Or did she not trust in Jesus, since there is no account of her sharing the Gospel with these thugs?

Here is a post from K-house, ministry of Chuck Missler and his thoughts on a just war.

Just war from

“As the countries of the world consider the prospect of a war with Iraq, many Christians are debating over what position they should take on the war, and whether a war can or should be considered justified Biblically.

Christ told his followers to turn the other cheek, to forgive their enemies and to pray for those that persecute them. Warfare involves the purposeful violent destruction of human life, which God holds precious. “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man,” the LORD told Noah in Genesis 9:6.

At the same time, the LORD sent His people into battle on many occasions, both in leading them into the Promised Land and in defending them from their enemies. The LORD called David a man after his own heart – the same David about whom it was said, “Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands” (1 Sam 18:7). God is called by the name “LORD of Hosts” 234 times in the King James, a name that connotes Him as a God of battle leading His troops. Deuteronomy 20:1 says, “When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies” and proceeds to lay out for the Israelites rules of engagement.

While most of us desire peace, and rightly see war as a horrible evil, there are times when war can be the necessary course of action to bring greater peace. War stopped Hitler from his mad efforts to take over Europe and to slaughter those innocents who stood in the way of his “perfect Aryan race”. Without war, South Korea would currently be under the dictatorship of a cruel communist regime and Afghanis would still be suffering under the rule of the Taliban. There was no concerted, active war against Stalin, and he was allowed to torture and murder millions upon millions of his own people while the largely ignorant West did little to stop him.

In Matthew 24:6 Jesus warns that there will be wars and rumors of wars, saying “see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass”

As Ecclesiastes 3:1 & 8 states, “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven a time of war, and a time of peace.”

Throughout the centuries, Christians and Christian leaders have sought to determine when that “time for war” is, and what constitutes a “just” war. In his Summa Theologica, Saint Thomas Aquinas makes the argument that three criteria are necessary for a just war;

That the leader of the nation, as the one given the authority and responsibility by God to rule, wage the war. Aquinas comments on Romans 13:4, saying, “It is their [national leaders] business to have recourse to the sword of war in defending the common welfare against external enemies.”
There must also be a just cause for going to war. Whether in self defense, or in the defense of another person/people, there are times when it is justified to go to war.
Aquinas’ 3rd criteria is that those going to war must have the right intentions, and their war must be for the advancement of good or the avoidance of evil. St. Augustine, along the same lines as Aquinas, argued “True religion looks upon as peaceful those wars that are waged not for motives of aggrandizement, or cruelty, but with the object of securing peace, of punishing evil-doers, and of uplifting the good.”
If there is an aggressor who threatens the peace and safety of a nations citizens and/or allies, then that nation has the responsibility to secure the safety of those for whom it is responsible by making efforts to stop the aggressor. Hopefully, that safety can be achieved through diplomatic means. If not, there may come a point when failing to wage war becomes foolish and even wrong, because the ensuing false “peace” allows an aggressor to destroy innocent life to accomplish his execrable goals.

“How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.” -Psalms 82:2-4

And yet, avoid spilling innocent blood; “Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.” -Jeremiah 22:3

As it appears that war is approaching, the most important thing – above everything else – individual Christians can do is to pray. Throughout the Bible, God worked His excellent will through the prayer and trust and worship of His people. There were times when God did lead His people to battle. However, there were many times when He defeated the enemy without His people even having to fight – because they prayed and He went before them. May we get on our knees now, and pray that God would be honored in the days ahead, that His will would be done, and that He would direct every step of our nations’ leaders.”

Now here are a few more scriptures.
Psalm 144:1 [A Psalm] of David.]] “Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:”

David states that God teaches his hands to war and his finger to fight. The apostle Paul says, 1 Corinthians 14:8 “For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?”

Why would Paul mention going to battle if it was wrong? Jesus and the apostles never condemned any Roman solider for their service.
When I was on Facebook, I saw another topic talking about this subject. Below are 3 replies from two people (names removed) and what they say about this issue.

Person 1:
“As far as the “eye for an eye”…. In Matt 5:38 Jesus is quoting an Old Testament law from Exodus 21:24 “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”. In its Old Testament context, Ex 21:24 was to establish fair retribution, to prevent abuses from those desiring excessive retribution. In Matt 5:39, Jesus is correcting those [Jews] who are applying the “eye for eye” as if it is referring to retaliating in like manner against someone who has offended or dealt unjustly with another.

A simple slap to the cheek is relatively harmless physically. But it may be quite harmful to one’s dignity. Jesus applies this principle of non-retaliation to multiple areas of personal life. For example, affronts against one’s dignity in (Matt 5:39), lawsuits to gain one’s personal assets (Matt 5:40), infringements on one’s liberty (Matt 5:41), and violations of property rights (Matt 5:42). When the context is considered, there is no indication that Luke 6:27-28 and Matt 5:39 is suggesting we should not defend ourselves.

Matt 5:39 should be understood in the way Jesus was applying it; a new application of the Old Testament passage. At most, it would be a prohibition against retaliating against personal offenses and unjust retaliation in domestic disputes. It is in no way a sweeping, universal prohibition against defending oneself (using military means or physical violence) from unjust, military, hostile aggressors.”

Person 2:
“I appeal to scripture, not the constitution for following Christ. I appreciate our country, but it’s laws are not what Christians should be following. If you disagree with how I interpret that scripture, I would encourage you to review how Jesus and the Apostles acted in those situations…did they appeal to the Christian right to self defense? No, they lived the teaching of “As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” They didn’t hide weapons in their wool.”

Person 1 again:
“I also appeal to scripture for following Christ, but we are all subject to the governing authorities put in place by God.

(Rom 13:1) Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

The early Christians did not arm themselves enmasse because they knew Rome would have crushed them out of existence if they would have revolted like the Jews did. The best chance for early Christianity to survive was to avoid conflict.

Today, we are not in the same situation as early Christians. We are the most numerous faith group and potentially wield the greatest influence for goodness and justice the world has ever known.

More sinners will hear the gospel because preachers were protected by law, or lawfully owned and used weapons than if we allow them to kill us off without a defense.”